1. Leonid09/20/2005 11:14:30
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

I suggest to publish such breeders.

2. Allegra Steck09/20/2005 11:26:09
Homepage: http://www.centralasianequines.com

Jessica,

What was the defect that was mentioned ?

Allegra

3. Leonid09/20/2005 11:48:23
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

To Allegra
Vashi experimenty c ahaltekinskoy porodoy nedostoyny, chtoby Vy obschalis' sredi zavodchikov, a Samovara my nikogda ne priznaem chistokrovnym.

4. Jessica 09/20/2005 13:31:29

Leonid, personally I do not think that "black lists" are good or even necessary. A wise woman once told me her philosophy on how to treat people behaving badly; just roll out the rope and eventually they will hang themselves with it". Sounds better in Swedish and I am sure there is a very good Russian proverb for this situation.
I strongly believe in education and transparency, we need better education for newcomers to the breed and also better possibilities for new breeders ( like myself) to improve themselves in order to be able to improve the breed.
Perhaps an optional list of breeders that follow certain quality rules could be a good thing, I have seen it practiced with among ot Swedish Standard bred owners/breeders and in the European sport horse world.
It is better to reward the champions than to punish the bad, the bad deserves nothing, not even ink or web space!

5. Allegra Steck09/20/2005 20:54:07
Homepage: http://www.centralasianequines.com

Leonid,

I am sorry but I do not speak Russian !

Allegra

6. Leonid09/21/2005 01:55:38
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Perhaps you are right.

7. Blanca09/21/2005 04:10:09

This is a very interesting subject. In fact, ATs are bred many times without any selection, just for the sake of breeding, because "it is an endangered breed". Probably this is not the fault of the breeders but of the market, which aborbs anything concerning the ATs. In Europe, for instance, there are people breeding who have never been to Russia. They only know the European AT or the ATs featured in old books. Also, I've seen ATs who are extremely thin and their owners saying that "this is the way an AT should look like".

Maak has disregarded some deffects in the ATs, admitting as breeding stallions/mares individuals which wouldn't be admitted by other standards. I think this is changing, i.e., we could see last year how the VNIIK has forbidden to breed stallions with chriptochorisdism (I never know how to write this in English).

So, yes, we need education. I would be very much interested to know what are the most common deffects considered as being "caracteristics" of the AT.

8. Leonid09/21/2005 10:38:57
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Please, publish list of deffects, wich you count like tipical for akhaltekes. In this case I try to say my oppinion.

9. Jessica 09/21/2005 15:28:11

There are no typical defects of Akhal-Tekes according to my opinion. Defects that should not appear in animals selected for high performance or breeding (because they are inheritable) are the same for all breed the most common defects for performance is parrot mouth, club foot, flat foot, sickle hocks, calf knee.
For breeding soundness, fertility it is cryptorchidism.
Akhal-Teke breeding outside Russia is more or less the wild west. Most people that engange in the breed have no where to turn for advice, reliable statistics and breed expertise.
When Todd and I founded akhalteke.net we where overwhelmed by all the questions about the breed that we got from more or less all over the world.
We found out that some breeders of Akhal-Tekes didn't have pedigrees for their horses and still bred them, to later find out that they had incest bred horses, newcomers to the breed had been sold horses with severe defects such as crypto, parrot mouth and been told that those defects where ok in the breed. This people even bred these horses and sold offspring, to the next breeder that didn't know better. This is happening repeatedly and some breeders that can themselves big and with vast experience even openly ridicules the issue of defects in horses.
The marketing of the breed as rare and original has attracted a very heterogenous breeding community here in the west. The knowledge abut horses and breeding is very varying and this shows clearly in how some breeders select and produce horses. Very few of the breeders work with breed improvement, they are involved in various schemes of saving the breed.
After having quickly scanned the stallion population in the US for example, one might think that some of the defects mentioned above really comes with the breed. Hadn't I been in Russia and Turkmenistan and seen the true Akhal-Tekes I would never have been involved in the breed. I would say that the situation is serious and s getting worse as there is no organisation or any group that is seriously addressing this problem.

10. Leonid09/21/2005 16:23:53
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

I am agree with you beside of one ball cripto sires. Greatist akhalteke sires were cripto, like Polotly, Orlan, and so on. In our case we don't breed animals for meet in big quontity. We produce goods sold by the piece. Such situation in English thouroghbred.

11. Todd Keith09/21/2005 17:18:20
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/

Hi Leonid,
I know that Peren, Gomon, Khalif and others were cryptos but when we where in Stavropol I counted and photographed 2 balls on Orlan! One smaller than the other but there were 2 there! Tatyana told me years ago that Orlan was a Crypto so I was amazed to see 2 hanging there... I'll email you my photo.

Todd

12. Leonid09/22/2005 01:54:11
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

It happened when Orlan was 15, such situation was with Yakyr too.

13. Blanca09/22/2005 03:00:29

Does it mean that the second testicle can "appear" in the 15 year of age? Amazing...

Jessica, I agree, sickle hocks are common deffect. I would also add deer neck. This is presented as due to the high set neck of the tekes...

14. Leonid09/22/2005 05:00:39
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Deer neck with long nape to create very nice picture, without nape it is ugliness.

15. Blanca09/22/2005 05:30:42

Because Lisa, to have a high set neck does not mean to have deer neck, which is different. Deer neck prevents you from having the horse mouth in you hand because the muscles of the neck are working in the opposite way. You need a lot of work/time to correct a deer neck, which, again, is not an AT feature but a deffect.

16. maria09/22/2005 18:14:48

It's true what Blanca says: deer neck is horribly difficult to work with and is very hard to correct. I can't add more to her very good description. I had continuous problems with Altai who gave himself a deer neck, he wasn't born with one but the net result was the same. I then rode an Arab mare for a year who went on the bit naturally and for the first time in my modest riding career I knew what a real extended trot felt like. A horse with a deer neck can't extend.

17. Leonid09/27/2005 15:02:52
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

О бонитировке


В ежегодном информационно-аналитическом альманахе «АХАЛ-ТЕКЕ информ» за 2005 год была опубликована статья уважаемой Т. Рябовой «Что такое бонитировка?» Эта статья вызвала у меня ряд критических замечаний, которые мне кажутся важными.
Во-первых, вызывает недоумение необходимость бонитировки применительно к чистокровным лошадям, к которым мы относим и ахалтекинскую породу. Мне сложно представить английскую чистокровную, классифицированную не результатами скаковых испытаний, а бонитировочной комиссией. Безусловно, если чистокровную лошадь предполагают к использованию в пользовательном коннозаводстве, то к ней надо относить все правила бонитировки, свойственные данной конкретной полукровной породе лошадей. Но классификация чистокровных лошадей с целью применения их в чистокровном коннозаводстве, является, на мой взгляд, внутренней заводской информацией, разглашение которой можно приравнивать к промышленному шпионажу.
Но вернёмся к критикуемой статье. «Предтечей современной бонитировки были ремонтёрские регламенты оценки лошади» То есть, это, по сути, сугубо пользовательный взгляд на лошадь в принципе недопустимый в оценке чистокровной лошади. Продолжать практику бонитировки применительно к ахалтекинской лошади значит ставить её в ряд полукровных пород и на их поле применения. Конкурировать ахалтекинцам с полукровными лошадьми, имеющими существенную специализацию на спортивном секторе рынка, значит поставит породу в экономически неблагоприятное положение.
Далее «Как в ремонтёрской практике, так и при бонитировке стоимость лошади зависела от оценки экспертов» и тут же по прилагаемой инструкции «1. Бонитировку племенных лошадей проводят специалисты Института коневодства, имеющие необходимую квалификацию». Как это понимать? Только, как узаконенное посредничество между продавцом и покупателем, а также как введение монополии на рынок ахалтекинских лошадей. А какая роль отводится Ассоциации?
«2. Материалы бонитировки используются … при составлении селекционных программ, выдаче племенных паспортов, денежной оценке лошадей …». Хотелось бы знать, кто сегодня в условиях рынка заинтересован в составлении селекционных программ, спускаемых из Института. Денежную оценку проводят для налоговой инспекции и страховой компании, в другом случае это коммерческая тайна. И какова сегодня методика денежной оценки? И опять это всё делают квалифицированные работники института!!!
«6. Чистокровными ахалтекинскими считаются лошади, отвечающие следующим требованиям
· происхождение их обязательно должно быть подтверждено иммуногенетической экспертизой крови.
· все их предки записаны в Государственную книгу племенных лошадей чистокровной ахалтекинской породы, а сами они занесены в «Регистр молодняка»
Что тут сказать? Полностью проигнорированы запреты, принятые Ассоциацией на применение биотехнологий в разведении чистокровной ахалтекинской породы. Это очередной плевок на принятые нами решения. Особенно это оскорбительно ввиду рождения в 2004 году жеребчика Самовара от Гиндарха и Сеновы, полученного методом пересадки эмбриона на ферме Аллегры Стэйк в Америке.
Кроме того, не понимаю, почему чистокровными считаются лошади, записанные в Государственную племенную книгу России? А что делать лошадям, рождённым вне России? Не пора ли создавать ассоциативную племенную книгу?
Много вопросов вызвала эта статья. Может быть стоит над ними задуматься.

18. ronald11/05/2005 19:29:49

comment to point 4
I agree to you, but I think that it maby would be a good thing to have a black list if it would be proved that someone would be bad our that they didn't thake good care of there horses. Yes we need better education for newcomers to the breed to improve themselves in order to be able to improve the breed.

19. Jessica 11/10/2005 10:04:20

Ronald. I still think a black list is the wrong tool to work with to increase transparency and to help newcomers. Who would decide who, when and why a breeder/dealer should be published on a black list. Instead we should work out ways of more efficiently promote the good horses and the good breeders. This is best done via breed shows.
Another system of positive ranking is the web rankings that you can see in online bookstores, eBay etc where sellers and products are ranked by buyers. I think it is a better motivation to work for more stars than trying to avoid a black list! You can also work with quality systems where breeders have to declare the way they work, how many horses, they have, size of studfarm, number of employees etc.

20. Ronald11/10/2005 17:19:00

OK Jessica, you have right to some point. I think that it will be a very difficult problem. Because I think, that your ideas also aren't be 100% objectif, it could be manipulated as well, but on the other hand we will never get that 100% I think, but we must start somewhere.