Saturday 24th, September 2005
PermaLink Artificial Reproductive Technologies (ART) and studbooks09/24/2005 10:51 AM



Allegra and Leonid have brought up a very interesting subject that, like many other equine topics, have a tendency to make our blood boil. Instead of fighting over one single horse that will not make any difference for the breed anyways. Let's go for a tour in a helicopter


to look at ART from above in another perspective.
ART includes all techniques we can use today in reproduction, in equine reproduction today we use ultrasound to check for pregnancy and ovulation, we use AI with fresh, cooled and frozen semen, embryo transfer, harvesting and freezing of eggs and cloning.
Many breed associations have been implementing the different ARP techniques step by step and under careful consideration. The most important issues that have been discussed within breed associations are;

Economical impact for breeders, will the usage of ART within our breed generate more profit to the breeders, mare owners, stallion owners.

Fertility: How do we make sure that, if we use ART, still work towards our goal of breed fertility/soundness. With too much technology involved the fertility might get lost. Will ARP affect the inbreeding coefficient in our breed.

Breed soundness: Do we work towards our goal of producing sound and long-living animals in using ART. Will ART affect the inbreeding coefficient in our breed.

Improvement of performance: Will our breed benefit performancewise from ART.  

I think the discussion should be focused around the above issues and that all of us involved in the breed really have to consider those carefully. The Akhal-Teke breeder community is like in other breeds heterogenous. We have the range of large, professional breeders to the one mare owner that wants one foal from her favourite horse. We also have breeders with different goals, the breeders that breed for improvement and future generations, the breeders that produce and the breeders that will only have one foal on a lifetime.

We have a geographical distribution of the breed that is as challenging as well as the different cultures of horse breeding we apply to the breed.

The distribution of breeders that have a clear goal, system and means  for breed improvement and breeding for future generations are located with very few exceptions to Russia, Kazakhastan and maybe Turkmenistan.   While hobby breeders with goals such as breed from favourite animals, save the breed, make quick money etc are in a majority in the west.

This differences we will have to live with and my hope for the future is that the breed will gain enough popularity in the west to attract professional breeders that can take the breed into the future here as well. Because we need all kinds of breeders for our breed and somehow we will have to work together to avoid a split of the breed into more than one mother studbook.

So the question to the breeding community and the management of the mother studbook is shall the studbook record genes no matter how they where created, or shall there be restrictions regarding what ART method was used to create the new genecombination? And how will these decisions affect the breed concerning the above mentioned issues.
     
Comments :v

1. Leonid09/25/2005 00:27:40
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Most of western breeders have warmblood mentality, so they count balls, against of races and use biotechnology in breeding. Not necesary to discuse this themes, necesary to change mentality. We have breed pureblood horses. And if you find money for mares, please сooperate for sire too, like we do. Everybody knows we stoped biotechnologyes in teke breeding.



2. Lisa Belhage09/25/2005 01:55:58


Hi Leonid,

I am sure that we would all be interested to know and understand the reasoning behind the ban on biotechnologies in akhal teke breeding in Russia. If you would be so kind as to present us with your arguement against artificial insemination, embryo transfer, etc., then perhaps we can again entice Maria to translate for us

Cheers, Lisa



3. Leonid09/25/2005 14:59:58
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Особые обязательства чистокровного коннозаводства

«…Статус чистокровной налагает особые обязательства на коневодов, разводящих эту породу. Идеальный племенной учет, строжайшая проверка происхождения и регулярное издание племенных книг необходимый минимум селекционно-племенных мероприятий…»
А. Климук

Совершенно очевидно, что понятие чистокровности не является научным термином, а является следствием традиционного понимания о лошади, сложившегося с древнейших времён. Чистокровность – это, прежде всего, дух, традиции, вытекающие из истории, культуры и философии развития человечества. Чистокровность – это, вообще, философское понятие. Человечество, развиваясь, разбилось на группы и касты в соответствии с социальным статусом и родом занятий, создало иерархическую лестницу. Каждая социальная группа создавала и создаёт для себя предметы, необходимые для её существования. Кастам людей, занимающих самые высшие ступени общественной лестницы, необходимо окружать себя предметами, способствующими укреплению их духа, власти и могущества. Среди ряда признаков, определяющих статус человека, безусловно, были и есть лошади. Людская «элита» нуждалась и нуждается в самых лучших, самых быстрых, самых смелых, то есть в чистокровных лошадях. Родилась, таким образом, каста элитных лошадей, обслуживающих интересы «элиты» общества. Нравится нам или не нравится, - это реальность, данная нам историей развития человечества, которая породила традиционное понимание чистокровности.
Чистокровность – это более древнее и более традиционное понимание, нежели «закрытая племенная книга». Безусловно, что сначала существовали традиции чистокровного коннозаводства и чистокровные лошади, которых записывали в племенные книги, а не наоборот - лошади, записанные в книги, стали называться чистокровными.
Следовательно, Книга, где учитываются чистокровные лошади, должна иметь статус Библии и соответственно должна сохранять в чистоте не только формальное происхождение, но и дух, понимание и традиции чистокровности.
Без понимания этих принципов чистокровное коннозаводство рискует превратиться в производственный конвейер с пронумерованной в регистрационной книге продукцией.
Чистокровное коннозаводство обязано строжайшим образом оберегать древние традиции и ритуалы, доставшиеся нам от гениальных предков, сумевших огранить этот сказочный бриллиант под названием чистокровная лошадь. Английские коннозаводчики, прекрасно понимая значение этих истин, окружили английскую чистокровную тщательно оберегаемыми древними ритуалами.
Судьба самой древней из чистокровных пород – ахалтекинской - в ХХ веке сложилась не столь благоприятно. Революционные коллизии, потрясшие Россию, разрушили веками сложившийся уклад общества. В сопровождающей революцию разрухе было не до соблюдения старых туркменских традиций коннозаводства. Следуя веяниям моды, в 30-е годы была проведена масштабная метизация породы с английской чистокровной. К счастью, эксперимент был не завершён, а помесные лошади были в массе отбракованы. Тем не менее, линия Ак-белека, к нашему позору, восходит к её родоначальнику «англичанину» Фортингбрассу. Больших усилий стоило текинским коннозаводчикам убедить мировую общественность в том, ахалтекинская порода лошадей не утратила статуса чистокровности.
ХХI век приготовил новый удар по устоям и традициям чистокровности. Это новые технологии, внедряемые деятелями от науки в современное коннозаводство, а именно: искусственное осеменение замороженной спермой, пересадка эмбрионов и разведение лошадей с помощью клонирования.
К чему приведёт внедрение указанных технологий? Прежде всего, к потере уникального духа чистокровности. Невозможно по фильмам и фотографии уловить тончайшие нюансы характера жеребца, стадии его формирования и становления, оценить двигательные способности. Селекционный подбор по фотографии приведёт к усреднению селекционных признаков коннозаводства. Безусловно, что фотография не отражает всех достоинств и недостатков лошади. Селекционер, создавая новую лошадь, превращается в слепца, ограняющего бриллиант. Исчезнет такой дорогой для всех конников термин, как «лошадь с сердцем». Влияние кобылы акцептора на вынашивание плода обязательно отразится на рождённом жеребёнке.
Кроме того, чистокровное коннозаводство, обслуживая интересы «высшего света», обязано занимать достойную нишу на рынке класса «люкс».
Внедрение современных технологий в коннопроизводство приведёт к первоначальному росту объёма производства и сопутствующему ему падению среднего качества и цены на продукцию. Ахалтекинские лошади станут доступными широким слоям населения. Куда заведёт сие благое намерение? Прежде всего, ахалтекинское коннозаводство потеряет сектор рынка класса «люкс», а рынок потребителей «среднего» класса занят массой лошадей полукровных пород, которые неизмеримо больше отвечают их потребностям и желаниям. На рынке «среднего» класса культивируемое чистокровным коннозаводством понятие «дух» становится нежелательным элементом. Да и стоит ли в этом случае, работая, по сути, на рынке полукровных пород сильно беспокоиться о чистоте происхождения. Например, чистокровная английская лошадь, попадая на рынок полукровных лошадей, как правило, стоит значительно дешевле последних.
То есть, это классический пример перепроизводства с последующим кризисом.
Настоящей статьёй мы предлагаем задуматься всех заинтересованных лиц перед выбором. Либо нам сохранить древние традиции чистокровного коннозаводства, либо занять место в ряду многочисленных полукровных, спортивных пород в развитии селекционных признаков которых, мы серьёзно отстали.

Леонид Бабаев



4. Leonid09/25/2005 15:03:47
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Искусственное осеменение – благо или зло?
Ахалтекинская порода лошадей, несмотря на всё большее распространение в мире, по-прежнему является породой с ограниченным генофондом. На протяжении всего ХХ столетия маточное поголовье породы не превышало 1000 голов, а большую часть века колебалось вокруг 500 голов. Искусственное осеменение, в традиционном смысле применяемое для широкого использования какого-либо производителя, может привести к сужению генетического потенциала породы и к повышению вероятности инбридинг депрессии. Поэтому вопрос о широком применении искусственного осеменения в ахалтекинском коннозаводстве никогда не стоял прежде. Несколько по-другому этот вопрос встал тогда, когда был разработан метод хранения глубокозамороженной спермы. Появилась возможность использования спермы выдающихся производителей при значительном удалении конных заводов между собой и при длительной её транспортировке. Кроме того, сперма выдающихся производителей редких пород могла храниться годы и десятилетия. Эта идея для ахалтекинской породы начала реализовываться в конце 70-х начале 80-х годов, когда во ВНИИ коневодства была положена на хранение сперма Халифа, Карата, Арарата, Гомона и Адата. Долгое время эта сперма была невостребованной, и лишь в конце 90-х годов были получены первые жеребята от этих производителей, давно уже павших.
В связи с расширением зоны разведения ахалтекинской породы лошадей вопрос об использовании искусственного осеменения встал на рубеже веков достаточно остро. В апреле 2000 года на Всемирном Конгрессе по ахалтекинскому коннозаводству в Ашхабаде, где присутствовали также делегаты из России (Т. Н. Рябова и Л. И. Бабаев), было принято решение запретить искусственное осеменение с 2001 года. Вместе с тем все полученные до 2001 года от искусственного осеменения жеребята признавались и регистрировались наряду с полученными от естественной случки.
В апреле 2001 года на очередном всемирном конгрессе в Ашхабаде без участия делегатов из России неожиданно было принято новое решение – разрешить использование искусственного осеменения для всех стран, кроме России и Туркмении на 10 лет.
ВНИИ коневодства, курирующий выпуск племенной книги в России, не считает оба решения легитимными, о чём неоднократно было сообщено в прессе и в интернете.
У сторонников и противников искусственного осеменения есть свои аргументы, причём весьма весомые.
Первые апеллируют к невозможности всем коннозаводчикам приобрести для использования действительно выдающихся производителей и указывают на значительное удаление одних конзаводов от других.
Вторые считают, что применение искусственного осеменения приведёт к значительному обеднению генофонда породы, что недопустимо. Не секрет также, что широкое распространение искусственного осеменения ведет к значительному уменьшению спроса на жеребцов-производителей, а, следовательно, и к проблемам сбыта.
Решение по этому вопросу может быть принято только с учётом мнения всех ахалтекинских коннозаводчиков России. Очень важным моментом я считаю дальнейшее согласование этого решения с коннозаводчиками других стран, в первую очередь с Туркменистаном. До окончательного согласования решения я считал бы правильным соблюдение моратория на любое искусственное осеменение в ахалтекинской породе.
Большую пользу для выработки собственного мнения можно было бы извлечь, сравнивая положение дел в чистокровной верховой породе с полностью запрещённым искусственным осеменением, с положением дел в рысистом коннозаводстве, где искусственное осеменение широко применяется.
А. С. Климук
Главный зоотехник по коннозаводству
Ставропольского конзавода.



5. maria09/25/2005 17:19:01


Hello, everyone,

I will do my best to translate both articles by the end of the week. I should have done it years ago...

Maria



6. Blanca09/26/2005 08:01:08


I think Klimuk's article has already been translated



7. Todd Keith09/26/2005 10:27:43
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/


Translated from Russian by: Maria Marquise

The Akhal-Teke breed, despite the increase in numbers world wide, remains a breed with a limited gene pool. For the duration of the 20th century the total numbers of broodmares was under 1000 and most of the time averaged around 500. AI, which in its traditional form is used to widen the opportunity to breed from a particular stallion, can result in the narrowing of the genetic potential of the breed and increase the possibility of inbreeding depression. For this reason, the question of a wide-ranging use of AI in AT horse breeding was never previously under discussion. The angle on this had changed with the development of the method to preserve semen in deep-frozen form. This method has made possible for geographically removed-from-each-other breeding centres to use exceptional stallions, without the quality of semen being affected by transportation. It also made possible to keep semen of from rare-breed animals for years and decades. This idea was beginning to be put into practice in the late 1970s-early 1980s when the semen of such exceptional stallions as Khalif, Karat, Ararat, Gomon and Adat, was placed for safe-keeping at the All-Union Research Institute of Horse breeding. For a long time the semen was just kept there and not utilised, and only at the end of 1990s there were foals born by these stallions who died long time ago.

As the AT breeding has widened geographically, the question of AI has become all-important at the turn of the millennium. In April 2000 at the International Congress for AT horse breeding in Ashkabad where delegates from Russia were also present (T.N. Riabova and L.I. Babaev), a decision was taken to ban AI from 2001. At the same time, all the foals born up to 2001 as a result of AI were admitted into the Stud Book on the same conditions as those born by the tradition breeding method.

In April 2001 at the next International Congress in Ashkabad where the Russian delegates were not present a sudden new decision was taken - to allow the use of AI for all countries other than Russia and Turkmenistan for 10 years.

VNIIK who controls the publication of the General Stud Book in Russia, does not regard either decision as legitimate - the position which has been made public repeatedly in the press and on the internet. The advocates and opponents of AI have their own legitimate reasons for and against AI, in both cases well-argued.

The former highlight the fact that breeders have limited possibilities to acquire and use really special breeding stallions and highlight the difficulties of transporting animals between breeding farms which are very far away from each other.

The latter feel that the use of AI will lead to the narrowing of the breed gene pool which is quite unacceptable. It is also no secret that a wide use of AI will lead to the fall in demand for breeding stallions and therefore to falling sales.

A decision on this issue can only be arrived at by taking into account the opinions of all the AT breeders in Russia. I also feel it essential that a full consultation with breeders in other countries is conducted, particularly with Turkmenistan. Until this issue is fully explored and agreed upon I would consider it right that AI should not be allowed in AT breeding.

It would be useful to examine other breeds' practices when considering the issue in AT breeding, for example at the English Thoroughbred where AI is completely banned and at the Trotting breeds where AI is widely used.

A. Klimuk, the Senior Breeding Specialist at the Stavropol Horse breeding farm.



8. Todd Keith09/26/2005 14:50:08
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/


Just a few thoughts,
Re-reading A. Klimuk's article, I understand his thoughts and concerns.
What I would like to see is a highly restricted use of AI.
I would want to limit the sires that can be used as well as the number of mares that can be inseminated per year from these sires. I'd want to limit the sires available to sires that are PROVEN improvers in the breed with very good type and conformation. I would also want to limit semen from only living sires. Once a sire dies, it's semen should be destroyed. The breed has not been improved in the west and needs an injection of good "blood". One way would be to get access to some of the improvers in Russia/Turkmenistan. Yes, you can buy a son of one of these improvers but that is still a shot in the dark as you never know the breeding value of a stallion until he is used for breeding... As for embryo transfer, I see really no reason to use it. With the exception to maybe Pampa, there aren't any broodmares out there that should produce more offspring than they can themselves. The question of AI is more important for us in the west than in the CIS as the quality and quantity of good breeding animals is higher than what is available in the west.

Todd



9. maria09/26/2005 17:37:25


All

That Klimuk article was a different article! I did translate it but it's not either of the one Lenia posted!

Watch this space.

Maria



10. maria09/26/2005 17:58:29


OK, it was the same one. I am clearly loosing my marbles - and my Russian. What confused me is that there are two articles on Lenia's site, one of which he posted on the blog but they are both quite interesting. Anyway, a good night's sleep for the translator!



11. Leonid09/27/2005 02:31:38
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


I want to ask you everybody. Why you breed Akhalteke horses? For what? and what is the image where you want go? You are don't race, you have not rings. I can not find akhalteke horses between best sport horses of the world. Finaly most of you are amateurs without correct aim of breeding. It is your hobby. Why you promote rules for russian and turcmenian breeders wich have clear aims. Let be with us, in our society. We produce more then 80% of world quontity, please cooperate with us, we are open. You can organize races out of Russia, show-rings, promote classic sports. But ussialy you by cheapest horses and then try to clone them. The movement of horses goes from East to West and we can don't notice horses wich you breed without heavy tolls, but it is not good. We are bearers of traditions, wellcome to us.
Еxcuse me for sharp wards, but I said, that other think.



12. Blanca09/27/2005 07:31:19


I agree with the use of AI on a restricted basis. Actually, the question of the use of the stallions is at the basis of the problem.
In the serious breeds, only approved/licensed stallions and mares can breed.

Within the AT breed, it seems that any stallion can breed. And this everywhere, including Russia. But aparently, nobody is interested in this problem: neither the breeders, not the Maak. I mean, there is only ONE person who can come every year to examine the prospective stallions here in Europe. We have been lucky and this person -Ryabova- has been twice this year here. She could even have come a third time for the Gut ising championship but aparently some people in the German Association were not happy with it. So she didn't come.

Anyway, going back to the problem, how could we have a system of approved stallions here in the West if there is only 1 person who can come to "give" the licenses and this person is getting old and busy?. So if we don't have a system of approved stallions, how can we have a system of approved semen?.

The ideal scenario would be to have these approved stallions and to use them either live, if possible, and if not, through AI. Only in this way we could enlarge the gene pool of the AT population here in Europe. We need Russian, Kazakh and Turkmen blood and we need also to encourage ourselves to go to see what our neighbours have within Europe. European stallions could be better used if matched with the mares which really match them and not necessarily with the breeders own mares.

That would be useful, all the more since it is forbiden to import frozen semen from any country of the former USSR, Russia included, and it will be for a while.



13. Todd Keith09/27/2005 09:06:30
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/


Blunt words Leonid, but very truthful!
I look forward to the day we will have a REAL world championship with REAL champions from around the world competing for the title (Racing, Ring and Sports). Today we have to accept that there is no competition (YET!) outside of CIS.
Blanca, your topic on judges (or judge....) is something I was planning on Blogging about today on my blog (if I get the time).
Todd



14. Todd Keith09/27/2005 10:57:29
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/


Hi Leonid,
One more comment.
I believe you have the same problem with some "new" breeders in Russia as well. Not all Russian breeders have breeding goals! They have the competition from other breeders, the rings and the shows but this doesn't always make them better breeders or understand what they are doing.
Todd



15. Leonid09/27/2005 14:37:24
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


To Blanca. Akhalteke horses can be Sires and broodmares by birthright. About judges. Why you wait Ryabova? Necessary to sertificate 10-15 persons for judging and to invite them through MAAK, wich we need to do democratic. When Todd and Jessica invited us to Sweden, we were judges.
To Todd. What means CIS? Yes ofcourse, it is big problem new breeders in Russia too. One hopeless, that they will become older or will disappear.



16. Lisa Belhage09/27/2005 14:45:00


Hi Leonid,
Does being a judge at a show mean the same thing as being able to do the official grading that ends up on the horse's papers? Were the "gradings" you and Klimuk did in Sweden official in that way?

-Lisa



17. Jessica 09/27/2005 14:54:43


The question if the radings and judgeing is official or not is not decided by the judges. In the case of the Swedish Show the results are official. The results will not be entered into the mother stud book though.



18. Leonid09/27/2005 15:01:03
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


It is must decide MAAK, not Ryabova. Take your rules in your hands.



19. Jessica 09/27/2005 21:59:50


Leonid's comments from the 25th translated to English by Maria Marquise, Maria thank you very much for your help with the translations!

Unique Responsibilities of Purebreeding

“… The status of purebred places a unique responsibility on those who work with this breed. Scrupulous registration of breeding stock, the strict tracing of parentage and regular publishing of stud books constitute the bare minimum within a selection and breeding programme….”

A. Klimuk


It is obvious that the concept of “pure blood” is not a scientific term but a consequence of a traditional view about horses, as it developed through time. Purity [of blood] is, first and foremost, a spirit, a tradition which came about in the course of history, as a result of cultural and philosophical development of the human race. In general, purity is a philosophical concept. Human society, as it developed, became stratified, split into social groups and casts in accordance with their social status and occupation, thus creating a hierarchical order. Every social group created, and continues to create objects which underpin its survival. The higher casts, those who occupy the uppermost rungs of the social ladder, are compelled to surround themselves with objects which aid and enhance their spirit, power and influence. Horses, without a doubt, are amongst the status symbols of humanity. Human “elite” needed, and continues to need the best, the fastest, the bravest horses, i.e. the purebred horses. Thus, a cast of elite horses was born, destined to serve the interests of the human social elite. Whether we like it or not – this is the reality of human history out of which the traditional concept of “pure blood” was born.

“Pure blood” is more ancient, more traditional concept than “closed studbook”. Without a doubt, the tradition of purebreeding developed over time and purebred horses were being entered into studbooks, not the other way around: horses in studbooks came to be called pure.

Therefore, the book into which purebred horses are entered should possess the status of a Holy Book and its role is to preserve the purity not only of the formal parentage but also of the spirit and tradition of purebreeding. Without the thorough understanding of these principles, purebreeding threatens to turn into a production line, a conveyor belt carrying numbered output.

The tradition of purebreeding is obliged to preserve in the strictest fashion the ancient ways and rituals we inherited from our ingenious ancestors who succeeded in polishing this magic diamond we now call a purebred horse. The English breeders understood well such truths and surrounded the English Thoroughbred in a web of ancient ritual.

The fate of the most ancient of the pure breeds – the Akhal-Teke – was not so fortunate in the 20th century. Revolutionary collisions which shook Russia destroyed the many centuries of social order. In the aftermath of destruction there was no time for guarding the ancient Turkmen tradition of horse breeding. Influenced by the fashion of the time, a massive programme of crossing the breed with the English Thoroughbred was undertaken. Fortunately, the experiment was not completed and cross-bred horses were, for the most part, discarded. Nevertheless, Ak-Belek line, to our great shame, goes back to its “English” founder, Fortingbrass. It took much time and effort for the Akhal-Teke breeders to persuade the global equine community that the Akhal-Teke have not lost its purebred status.

The 21st century prepared a new blow to the principles and tradition of purebreeding. It is the new technologies, introduced by the scientific commiunity into modern horse breeding, more precisely: artificial insemination with frozen semen, embryo transfer and cloning. Where will these technologies lead us? First and foremost, to the loss of the unique spirit of purebreeding.

Film and photography are powerless in capturing the subtle nuances of the stallion’s character, the stages of his development and maturity, the quality of his movements, Selection based on the use of images will encourage amelioration [or mediocrity] of selection principles. A photograph can never reflect the full range of merits and flaws in a horse. A breeder who thus attempts to create a horse is a blind man attempting to polish a diamond. It will lead the disappearance of the precious-to-breeders term “horse with a big heart”. A mare carrying a transferred embryo will without a doubt stamp the foal born out of her.

Besides, purebreeding – as it serves the interests of the “upper classes”, is obliged to occupy a worthy place in the “luxury goods” market. The introduction of modern technologies into horse breeding will lead to the initial surge in the production output and the lowering of the average standards and price. The Akhal-Teke horses will become accessible to the wide-range of the general public. Whereto will this noble intention lead us?

First of all, the Akhal-Teke breeding will loose the “luxury” sector of the market and will have to face the wider “medium-range” market which is occupied by a swarm of partbreds who are immesuarably better suited to its needs and demands. In the “medium-range” market the concept of “spirit”, nurtured in a purebred horse, becomes an undesirable element. And in any case, is there any point – if one panders to the demands of warmblood market – in bothering so much about purity? For example, the English Thoroughbred which finds its way to the general riding horse, as a rule, fetches a much lower price than the warmbloods. It is a classic example of over-production with the resultant economic crisis.

In this article, we are inviting all interested parties to ponder a choice they are facing: will we manage to preserve the ancient tradition of pure breeding or slot into the long list of numerous general sportshorse’ breeds whose development and selection has continued apace and left us well behind.

Leonid Babaev



20. Jessica 09/27/2005 22:12:33


Leonid, I have tried to work with MAAK as a breeder from outside Russia as well as a president for a breed association outside Russia and feel that I cannot spend more time to work with MAAK as they lack functions that are fundamental for an international breeders association. I attended the Ashgabad meeting in 2000 and my experience of the meeting was that issues that was supposed to be discussed where not prepared or presented properly to us that attended and that any decisions that where made where made from thin air only. Like in most cases when it comes to this breed and VNIIK and MAAK reliable statistics is missing. We can be of different cultures and of different mentalities and breeding philosophies but we still need some sort of basic facts that we can use to make our decisions from.
I did for long hope, and worked for a democratic and modern MAAK but have since a few years decided to spend my efforts elsewhere. I agree with you that we should take things more in our own hands and not anymore wait for MAAK to anyting that would objectively promote the breed. There are too many hidden agendas with those who have empowered themselves via MAAK, and the progrees and well-being of the Akhal-Teke breed is since long forgotten.



21. Todd Keith09/27/2005 22:13:01
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/


Leonid,
CIS in English is the Commonwealth of Independent States.
At present the CIS unites: Azerbaijan, Armenia, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Ukraine.
What is it call in Russian??
Todd



22. Leonid09/28/2005 02:15:22
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Necessary to create new world organization with international book and rules. Besides that soon we lost turcmenian part of breed, becourse they closed for international relatives and control.



23. Leonid09/28/2005 02:19:33
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


By russian this is СНГ.



24. Blanca09/28/2005 05:53:06


Leonid, I'm surprised to read from a brilliant breeder like you that "Akhalteke horses can be Sires and broodmares by birthright". I'm sure that, to make the excellent products you're doing now, you don't use any stallion or any mare but you're rather making a fine selection. Or do you mean that any stallion can produce well if matched with the right mare? Please explain...

As for the judges, I'm not waiting for Ryabova. It is the National associations which get Ryabova when, I guess, applying to Maak to have somebody to judge. The problem is that the system is so un-transparent and close that people -me, among them- ignore there could be a committee, or other people who might come to judge to Europe. If I were a national association I would do like Jessica and Todd, invite you and Sacha, but I understand that the unexpereinced national associations are afraid of doing things out of the "official track".

You wrote a very interesting article, Leonid. By the way, it explains the main difference between the CIS ("SNG") and the West: here, the ATs are not considered luxury articles for which to spend thousands of Euros. Breeders here are not backed by a millionaire class of new Russians, Kazakhs or Azeris.
Here if millionaires want to spend their money they buy a Dali painting or a super dressage mare which can in her turn bring lots of money from championships and foals. It is sad, this makes an enormous difference in the modus operandi. Although I agree that serious work should be done in either case to preserve and improve the breed. Only that for us it is a bit more difficult...



25. Leonid09/28/2005 06:49:55
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Blanca, only breeder can decide use this horses in breeding or not, and races, rings or customers can determe his work. This is pureblood philisophy. I decided to use such horses, you can have another decision. Market will determ.

I think you have to press your National associations, and they must press MAAK and finaly to change situation.

Necessary to create this image, to work about this. Here is "Millionaire fair" in Moscow. And the stand of our horses was bigger then mercedes. We must to create moda.



26. Lisa Belhage09/28/2005 07:40:24


Hi Leonid,

You appear to be in the lucky situation that there are plenty of wealthy customers for the horses you produce. But what happens to those horses? Do those newly rich people collecting akhal tekes as status symbols use these horses for anything other than decoration? Do they go on to breed them (with any kind of goal or breeding plan)? Do they have any kind of understanding of the work that you, as a breeder, have put in to producing such an animal? Does that make any difference to them?

In that way, isn't it a kind of dead end? These are fantastic, athletic and charismatic creatures. They have a lifespan of 25 + years. What happens to them after the appeal wears off, or the vet bills get unpleasant, or the interest changes?

We in the west are not accustomed to this kind of customer, for better or for worse.

Cheers, Lisa



27. Jessica 09/28/2005 08:16:35


The rubbish about people that can afford to buy quality horses and care for them and therebye promote the positive development of a breed would be bad for the horses do not belong in my blog. The people that believe that the not rich understands more about breeding or take better care of their horses I think believe in Santa Claus too. What have the middle class done to develop the warmbloods, the Arabians and the TBs to what they are today.
I do hope that the quality buyers will be attracted to the AT breed too. This we can only achieve with hard work and the promotion of the quality horse. The people that want to develop a niche to breed for the not so rich because these people "understand" the breed better can go somewhere else and do their work, not here.
Leonid, big congratulations to your success in the Millionaires Fair! And thank you from us here as breeders, for your work promoting the elite breed to the elite people.



Blocked Response!09/28/2005 10:06:02


This response from IP Address was blocked by the owner of this blog.



29. Leonid09/28/2005 14:59:27
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


When we created our Stud 1991 my country was below ziro. We waked up at 5 o'clock and standed on a waiting list for petrol. We had joke: " host asks guest: "Do you want tea with sugar? Yes. So let wash hands without soap". Mino Denti saw our stable at the moment of buying they was distruct. It is about our lucky situation. I don't say about crime time wich we lived in 90th.
When people by horses from me, they invest in my Stud, and money wich they pay compel them to respect this horses. Even this horses are decoration only it is perfect. But my costomers ride them, keep race and sport department, take participate in rings and they are happy. But my bissines to breed high class horses becourse I can do it.



30. Leonid09/28/2005 15:02:12
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Thank you very much Jessica.



31. Jessica 09/28/2005 15:31:05


Leonid I am not sure if it is the right way to go to create a new association to replace a dysfunctional association. It is a lot of work and who will do it.
It is also a serious threat to the breed if the Turkmen horses are closed out from the mother studbook (genepool) in the future.
I really, really hope that a lot of efforts are made to make shure that this will not happen.
A split among breeders in different countries will damage the breed and make it less successful. Communication among the serious breeders that are committed to breeding quality Akhal-Tekes will hopefully also help to stop the charlatans that exist in this breed.



32. Leonid09/28/2005 15:42:33
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Let's go will change MAAK. I am ready. Let consist list of changes and correct rights and force Tatiana to recieve them.



33. Jessica09/28/2005 15:48:15


Ok Lets get started with the list, I will create a new subject in my blog called the wish list to MAAK and we can get started to compile a list that can be presented to Tatyana Ryabova.



34. Lisa Belhage09/28/2005 15:48:25


Leonid,

You sell your horses, presumably for good prices, to the russians who can afford them. That income supports your farm and furthers your ability to continue breeding good horses. That is absolutely fair and good and beyond criticism. And I am very glad to know that your and your farm have survived the desperate times and are now thriving and continuing to produce beautiful examples of the breed.

I did not mean to imply with my previous comment that you should not sell your horses, or get the best possible prices for them. My concern was with the perception of the breed and purchase of a horse purely as a status symbol, without anything more than a superficial interest in the animal inside the beautiful skin. In the US there have been a number of dog breeds, for instance, theat have gone through this status/fashion cycle and it has definitely not been to the benefit of the breed in the long run. However, if your customers are horse people who are using them, enjoying them, caring for them, then as you say yourself - BRAVO!

-Lisa



35. Leonid09/29/2005 01:15:29
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Lisa, not everybody ofcourse, but most of them. Don't forget about hippodrom, wich compels breeders to produce realy powerfull horses. Be sure, we are not poodle breeders.



36. Lisa Belhage09/29/2005 01:29:10


Don't worry Leonid, I would never mistake your horses for poodles!!!

-Lisa



37. Leonid09/29/2005 01:56:33
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Thank you Lisa.



38. Jessica09/29/2005 06:56:36


Blanca I looked at the Spanish horse breeds, as I understand they do a grading of every animal much the same as VNIIK. The big difference is that if the animal gets points above a certain level, say above 7 for each judgement criteria, it doesn't get elite like with VNIIK, they get approval for breeding. The most usual reason for Spanish horses do not get breeding approval is the size, they are too small. Also the studbook number of the horse is changed to roman digits once it is approved for breeding. I like that system. Have I understood it correctly?



39. Blanca09/29/2005 07:51:34


Jessica, honestly, no idea, I'm not in contact with the PRE system. Because I guess you mean that studbook, don't you?



40. maria09/29/2005 19:13:30


Aren't poodles meant to be the most intelligent of all dog breeds? (As well as most jumpy - like someone we once met in cold Sweden).

Powerful? - yes! but what perfect poodles some of these horses bred by Leonid are, ideal companions to a non-breeder, one-horse owners like myself! How wonderfully sociable, forever curious and inventive an unlikely-to-be-approved stallion can be!



41. Jessica 09/30/2005 12:38:28


I would say that Standard poodles sometimes are as misunderstood as Tekes! They are athletic, easy to train and people lovers. But some people do not think that they look like dogs (again the giraffe syndrome), the breeder of our poodle was so happy that we bought her only to love and spoil her!
I also hope that we have herebye ended the debate about who has the right to own a Teke and what owners are supposed to do with their Tekes to be "approved". Love and spoil your Tekes and do feel good about it, I do.
And I'm not at all ashamed or have complexes for the fact that I do not show any of my Tekes in the Olympics. I am actually considering to make room on my blog for essays and or photos about the Akhal-Tekes and their owners and how they spend their favourite time together. Owning a horse have so many dimensions, the bonding, the quiet walk together, the pulse and adrenaline when you compete, the soft mussle on your cheek when you feel sad. The miracle when a foal is born. The feeling of fulfillment when you train a horse and everything works out the way you want and more and more.



42. Jessica 09/30/2005 12:46:16


I forgot to add, I developed a philosophy already in early ages. The head of the horse is not considered to be that important for performance abilities, this is a part of having been brought up in a warmblood mentality, with a little sidetracking into the very competetive Trotting world. My philosophy though, have been that if you spend all that time on your horse, no matter how good or bad your horse is in competition, you will have to see it every day, and a beautiful face that meets you in the stables will at least make you happy every day you see your horse, no matter how the nag performs later on.



1. maria03/24/2007 09:36:08


On ill-fitting and well-fitting saddles, Mualim has been for his post-fitting check-up, approximately 12 weeks after we started using the new saddle and the hollow areas of wasted muscle behind the wither have improved dramatically. On the chart, he has 1.5cm more muscle behind the wither than he did before we changed saddle. It just shows, that a conventional tree saddle, when it fits well, can do wonders and one doesn't always need to start looking at treeless alternatives. As to the mane sticking up, I am up for a contest, Jessica - I am not going to concede my place in the Guiness Book of Records for sticking-up-manes that easily!



2. Jessica 03/26/2007 14:03:05


Great that Mulim likes his new saddle. We are about to get started with saddle fitting now. Wish us good luck, I'm to old and conservative to look at treeless.
Well, I'll have the lenght of the longest part of the mane that is still sticking up measured and published tomorrow, and we can compare!
To Peggy Sue's disadvantage at this point though, she was braided last Saturday in a desperate attempt from us to make the mane come down, she looked so good without the Fjord mane!



1. Jessica 09/28/2005 17:05:17


I have the following items I would like to add to the wish list.

The MAAK is an international breeders association I would therefore suggest that everything published and communicated from MAAK is written in Russian, English, French and German.

MAAK must be separated from VNIIK and the Russian Akhal-Teke Association.

The MAAK board that prepars all questions concerning the breeders of Akhal-Tekes shall not be governed by representants for any breed associations or the mother studbook. The MAAK shall work for the interest of the breeders and one of the mission is to lobby for questions of importance for breeders. The MAAK board is elected by and responsable to the breeders.

MAAK shall be financed by member fees and sponsors. Board members shall not be paid.

MAAK can act as sponsors to important AT events when it comes to know-how, breed expertise and in some cases financial means.

MAAK shall work with total openness, have a clear visability on the market and use modern information technology for optimal communication and presence on the global AT scene.



2. Leonid09/29/2005 01:03:58
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Jessica it is too general.



3. Jessica09/29/2005 06:51:25


Leonid If you agree with the list so far we can work it out more in detail. Are you thinking about making it more like statutes?



4. Todd Keith09/29/2005 18:53:47
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/


Judges! A panel of judges to judge our horses in all types of shows. Judges in most breeds can never judge the same show 2 years in a row. So judges would need to be rotated. Judges should never judge their own horses, horses bred by themselves or horses sold by themselves.
Todd



5. Blanca09/30/2005 10:15:03


Breed plans or assistance to make them



6. Todd Keith09/30/2005 10:46:17
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/


The so called "World championships" need to be changed to be the last show of the year. Each national and/or regional show's winners would be the qualifying events for the world championships. This means only the best would be competing against each other. Today, anyone who takes a horse to this show is allowed to compete. It should be an honor to compete in this show!



7. Jessica 09/30/2005 12:09:47


Blanca, I understand what you mean, assistance with the project of working out a breed plan could be given on a national level. And also, I would like to see the breed plan for the world population.
Todd, the World Championships goes hand in hand with the open work with the World Championships and the panel of ackredited judges. I would also like to add that a future plan would be to circulate the world championships between the bigger AT countries. But first associations must start working with national breed shows, here I want to congratulate the people active in the French Akhal-Teke Association, they do a great job for the breed in France.



8. Jessica 09/30/2005 14:00:23


I cannot emphasise the importance of reliable statistics that is correct and relevant and published regularely and easy to access. Too many Tekes today of below average level are bred and no one, but the slaughterhorse industry, is winning when we see an overpopulation of unwanted horses. Good quality statistics will help breeders to make the right breeding decisions, in some cases to not breed.
I also think that the MAAK should work harder to spread information to the public about the unique and typical traits of the Teke. The Arabs have the jibbah and the mitbah.
I think the two subjects are linked, today it is easy to sell a Teke on the paper, the buyers are too uneducated to determine the value of the Teke.



9. Leonid09/30/2005 15:32:44
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Breeders must study independed and use only statistic information about results of races, rings and so on. We must not create boards for breeding.



10. Jessica 09/30/2005 15:45:29


Leonid The board of the new MAAK would work to push the studbook management to publish correct statistics etc. The board will work for giving breeders better statistics, better shows, better judges. I agree with you that the board would not replace the breeding/selection decisions for breeders. Every breeder have their own secret recipe for the perfect Teke that they follow. But we have the right to have our horses judged fairly etc.



11. Leonid10/01/2005 01:35:14
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


I am agree.



12. Jessica 10/03/2005 13:03:43


Ok my suggestion is that we write down a draft for constitutions for the new MAAK and its goals or do we have more suggestions?



1. Leonid09/30/2005 15:24:26
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


I think breeders must study independently and use only statistic information, results of racing, rings and so on. We can not create boards.



1. Leonid09/30/2005 15:28:38
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


I think breeders must study independently and use only statistic information, results of racing, rings and so on. We can not create boards.



1. Leonid10/28/2005 04:45:43
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


I'd insistir en word "Teke" breed.



2. Jessica 11/02/2005 11:48:46


I agree with you Leonid, I'll stick to the Tekes.



1. Leonid05/19/2006 11:18:55
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Good neck by Ozal.



1. shael12/05/2006 12:57:07
Homepage: http://shael-teke.com


Wellcome!!!



2. Todd12/05/2006 13:29:47
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/


Let's not forget the old "trained to xxx level", or being trained for Grand Prix xxx. Always check with the trainer to verify, and remember that a trainer is getting PAID to train a horse! Very few trainers will tell you that your horse should be glue or that they will only reach a certain level. This would mean loosing a paying client! Ask yourself, why has this horse been trained (for xxx years) for Grand Prix something, yet has never competed at that level. :-
Todd



3. Heather12/05/2006 14:24:54


Welcome to the Akhal-Teke blog! There are lots of newbies here, like myself, just working to slowly increase their understanding and knowledge about this wonderful breed. And I too emailed Leonid a couple months ago with questions in regards to his articles on Akhal-Tekes (posted on his website) and did not receive a response. But remember, there are lots of people here from lots of countries, and communication is not always 100%!
Do you mind sharing where your mare was purchased, or from which breeding lines? Do not feel obligated, however, as I am simply interested.
Jessica, there is no way to share pictures on the blog without having a hyperlink, correct? It would interesting to the see photos of other's horses, which we hear alot about, but I've no idea what they look like!



4. maria12/05/2006 15:09:07


I want to echo Jessica's advice: save your breeding fee for next year and spend the money on training your mare and flying to Russia to see the best horses. Seeing the best stock in the flesh totally alters your judgement and perceptions. Riding your mare or, if you don't ride yourself, seeing her ridden and watching her behaviour, will also tell you a lot about the Akhal-Teke, much much more than some of the write-ups on websites. It's not that the write-ups are always a deliberate distortions - most of the time they are not and the authors probably believe what they write but unless you have been around the Akhal-Teke for a while, it's really hard to interpret them objectively.



5. Darya12/05/2006 15:28:41
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com


Talking about being around the Akhal Teke for a while. I am completely in love now with my horses. Our relationship has come to a certain point, where they love me (in their horsey love kind of way) and are seeking my attention. My stallion is actually starting to be completely focused on me, and is not even paying so much attention to what the mare is up to, but concentrated on me. I am so happy and it has become so much easier to do everything with him including training. Just shows what two months of care, attention and determination can do. Once you won their heart, there is no better horse.

On the subject though, it makes me feel very sad, that people get put off through experiences like this. There is nothing worse, than being disappointed in your own horse. Don't let it make you feel down and just look at things objectively and do what is best.



6. maria12/05/2006 17:32:37


I am going to make a wild guess as to who you are, the Akhal-Teke mare owner, wanting to educate yourself about the breed: "Are you the person who was bowled over by the most recent picture of Gasyr and nominated him as your top-choice stallion for your mare?" I could be completely wrong... but I invite everyone to look at this extraordinary photo (on shael-teke) which truly incapsulates the quote on the same site: "Zmei, geparda i orla edinyi splav" - so true and so difficult to translate with the same rhythm as it has in Russian! - "A snake, a cheetah and an eagle - all in one"



7. Kerri-Jo12/05/2006 18:05:31
Homepage: http://akhal-teke.ca


That answers my questions. Yes, I found the stallion pictures on the Russian sites more "exciting" to look at than those on other North American websites, although I'm sure we have some great ones here as well. I will save up and go to Russia for the breed events - but it won't be until 2008. I did not know what getting involved with an Akhal-Teke meant! The difficult part is getting educated with so many completely opposing opinions!

I do love my mare, she has good solid conformation. She is really quite wild though and does not know anything at all. It will take a while to train her and I have put her with a professional trainer. She already follows me around though and seems like she really wants to trust people. She is on "rest" right now to settle in and gain weight (she is very skinny). Wish us luck!



8. shael12/06/2006 02:06:42
Homepage: http://shael-teke.com


Dear Kerri-Jo and Heather, my apologies. Sometime, when I recieve long and difficult letters, I have not good english for moment answer. I tell myself "tomorow, later", but day to day and another affairs. I am sorry. I could answer by russian?



9. shael12/06/2006 02:17:35
Homepage: http://shael-teke.com


My new adress www.shael-teke.com



10. Darya12/06/2006 03:42:16
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com


Hello Kerri-Jo and welcome! Good you have found your way to this blog. I have got a pretty wild mare myself, but we have gone a long way in two months, and once they trust you, they will let you do anything as long as you are gentle and do not cause them pain and put them off. It is funny how by working my mare she has actually become much happier. She walks out of the stable with the purpose and she feels so proud when she does good and I praise her. She is like a little shy child in this massive body. I wish I had a camera with me yesterday as she decided to have a nice play in the paddock and was doing some dressage and spanish riding school elements after doing her favourite impersonation of a race horse. It was so funny to watch.



11. Blanca12/06/2006 06:27:21


Hello Kerri-Jo, and welcome to the AT community.

You have a nice mare and I wish you will find not "the best" stallion but the best stallion for her!



12. Blanca12/06/2006 06:30:20


PS. I hope you don't mind the small correction made in your web site



13. Heather12/06/2006 08:48:32


Leonid,
No need to be sorry. I am well aware that I ask too many questions when I am interested in something, and I enjoyed your articles. Some of them (that were only available in Russian) I had to run through an online translating tool, since my Russian is not so great. Of course, those never work so well, and things can be unclear. You may respond in Russian if you like, and I'll do the best I can, but truly I know you are a busy person and a reply is not manditory.



14. Heather12/06/2006 10:19:04


Kerri-Jo,
I couldn't help but notice that your web address is "stewartclan". You are in good company here, as Todd is obviously Clan Keith, and my family is Clan Anderson. "Alba go braugh", as the old-timers in my family say!
Heather



15. Todd12/06/2006 11:06:24
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/


Right Heather, Clan Keith! Veritas Vincit!
Alba go Bragh!

Todd Keith of the Clan Keith



16. shael12/06/2006 12:12:31
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com


Please Heather!



17. Heather12/06/2006 12:42:37


Thank you, Leonid. But if I had a dollar for everytime an adult had told me "Stop asking questions" when I was a kid I would be a rich woman! I had a teacher that even made a sign that said "WHAT?" and would hold it up anytime I came to her desk! Any answers are appreciated very much.



18. shael12/06/2006 13:22:01
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com


Take it easy



19. Kerri-Jo12/06/2006 14:06:22
Homepage: http://akhal-teke.ca


Hi Leonid - I love your website and your horses! I would be honoured to see them one day. Please write me in Russian, my husband's colleague can translate for me. Thanks!



20. Kerri-Jo12/06/2006 14:10:20
Homepage: http://akhal-teke.ca


Oh - and thanks Blanca, I appreciate your correction as In didn't know it was the wrong picture. I set up the blog as a reference for me to learn.



21. shael12/06/2006 15:36:16
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com


Please, I am open.



22. Jessica12/06/2006 15:57:30


To go back to the different opinions and advice Kerri-Jo has gotten in her quest for a Teke, I think to discuss different views is interesting and educational. If you want to share some of the differences you ponder about please feel free to do so.
I would also like to pose a question that came up when I have read and shared the experience with newcomers to the breed, especially here in the USA were many has not yet been around so much and therefore not yet seen the essence of the Teke so to say.
Well, here is my question; Which five traits do you think make the Teke and no Teke would lack? With traits I mean everything like conformation, movements, temperament etc.
I think of long legs, long thin neck, zatylok, dry noble, highly carried head, fluid movements and a never ending willingness to work with you.
This question leads to the next question, which five traits are most merited by the breed judge today?



23. maria12/06/2006 18:40:30


sorry to disrupt the discussion - I am translating the article about the 2006 Breeders' Cup at Equiros and am struggling to think of the English equivalent to the Russian expression . It's similar to but relates to the visual, rather than auditory, senses. Stupid stupid Babelfish gave me the priceless !!! I hope to finish it tonight and it should be soon available on Shael site. Please help - it's driving me potty.



24. maria12/06/2006 18:44:19


the Russian is "bal'zam na dushu" - it disappeared from the previous post because I put it in triangular brackets, it must be some Java script or other. Similar to English "music to my ears"



25. maria12/06/2006 18:45:23


Babelfish came out with "Balsam Per Capita" - don't use Babelfish if you can help it!



26. maria12/06/2006 19:25:23


one more please, my friends: lozhka degtia v bochke meda. It literally means a spoonful of tar in a barrel of honey. Anyone who can offer me the proper English equivalent can have a ride in my new saddle with its very hard seat! ha-ha



27. Kerri-Jo12/06/2006 19:39:00
Homepage: http://akhal-teke.ca


The reason I wanted an Akal-Teke was because I wanted a taller horse that would be good at endurance and competitive trail riding. (A big bonus is that they are also good at other disciplines so I will also be able able to do dressage and try jumping with her.) What are the typical breed traits and best lines for the good endurance horses?



28. maria12/06/2006 20:15:29


Kerri-Jo, like with other sports, one of the most important traits is mental suitability of a particular horse for the discipline. The other all-important trait is soundness. You should discover in time if your mare has the endurance mentality. In my not-very-extensive experience, not all Teke are obsessed with running long distance. My first one was just that but the one I have at the moment is the opposite. He is great on trails but he doesn't have the obsession to go on and on and on forever. Having said that, most Akhal-Teke are capable of going 50 miles with normal appropriate training. How come your mare is so wild? How old is she?



29. Heather12/07/2006 09:01:29


Maria,
"Music to my ears" but in reference to visual senses makes me think of the English saying "a feast for the eyes."



30. shael12/07/2006 09:51:50
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com


Look Maria job here:
http://www.shael-teke.com/web/shael.nsf/htmlarticles/315EDE253116331985257230003665E9



31. Darya12/07/2006 10:09:52
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com


Excellent work, Maria! Akhal Tekes are lucky to have you.



32. Heather12/07/2006 11:10:37


Maria,
For the second one, the only English saying I could think of is "one bad apple spoils the bunch."



33. maria12/07/2006 19:15:55


Heather, the "bad apple" expression is kind of near enough but doesn't fit with the tone of the article. I used "cloud overshadowed...." which works well but the first one - bal'zam na dushu - I just had to fudge. I still can't think of anything suitable. "Feast for the eyes" is TOO visual : - ) Anyway, I think I would give myself 7 out of 10 for the translation overall, no more!



34. Heather12/08/2006 08:10:21


Maria,
You did a great job! I think you deserve at least an 8.5. It's so hard to translate things without losing a lot of the inference.



35. Jessica12/08/2006 14:26:21


Kerri,
Since we imported the first Teke to Sweden, many endurance riders, a few of them WC riders have been checking out our horses. Being curious and not an endurance rider myself I always ask them which one of the Tekes at our farm they would pick for endurance.
It seems like the same horses have been picked, Almaz and Alma, two different types of Tekes indeed but somehow I can agree as they are both very correct and of athletic build. Almaz actually was selected two cover the, at that time, two most successful endurance mares in Sweden that had participated in world championships and the Quatar endurance.
Obviously he must have something that the top endurance riders like. You can look at pictures of him on our home page under our horses if you want to study his conformation.
A successful Australian endurance rider, Tom Thomsen, that has been in the US a few times to check out the Tekes her, actually did not find his endurance Teke here but at our stud farm in Sweden. He had earlier seen Almaz and picked him as a good endurance type and a few years later he bought Gelberi from us, pregnant with Almaz. You can look at Gelberi and Alma under our horses on our web page.
The endurance riders as I know them are very careful in picking horses that are correct with a strong body build and pure movements.
A Teke that was not picked by the endurance riders but did quite good in competetive endurance in Russia was Parikhan.
There are not enough Tekes that compete in endurance to draw any statistical conclusions on stallions that produce good endurance Tekes or other combinations compared to the Arabian breed that have so many horses out being tested per year so that you can pick the best producers from reliable statistics.
Like with so much else in this breed it is the trial and error system that is applicable. Expensive and time consuming enough to make endurance riders pick Arabians instead!



1. Allegra Steck02/21/2006 21:50:00


Goodness, Jessica, what happened to Gul ?

Allegra

PS Lovely picture...:)



2. Alexandr02/22/2006 13:13:27
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Allegra, say please, who is ersatz mother of Samovar?



3. Allegra Steck02/22/2006 13:31:00


I am sorry Alexander, I do not understand your question ?

Allegra



4. Jessica 02/22/2006 15:18:26


Allegra. We had to euthanize Gul due to injuries she got in a trailer accident. It was a very sad day when Gul had to leave us.



5. Allegra Steck02/22/2006 15:25:30


Jessica,

My sympathies to you and Todd. What a tragedy to lose such a lovely mare so young, and one you had bred and raised and had such hopes for.

Allegra



6. Alexander02/22/2006 15:57:30
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Dear Allegra, you have first expierence of embrio transplantation in akhalteke breed. Can you inform me pedigree of parents of this foal and his ersatz mother.
Best regards
A. Klimuk



7. Allegra Steck02/23/2006 01:22:58


Dear Mr Klimuk,

I am sorry, but I cannot claim the first embryo transfer foal in the Akhal-Teke breed, there were others born here in the US before Samovar, in addition there are some other ET foals currently in-utero now, due this year, although none of them are mine.

But to answer your question, Samovar is sired by Gindarkh 13 (Gaukhar x Takappara), out of Senova (Senetir x Oliva). His surrogate mother was a mare that I bred and have owned since birth.

Sincerely,
Allegra



8. Alexander02/23/2006 13:22:45
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Mrs. Steck, thank you for your reply.
Best wishes.



9. Allegra Steck02/23/2006 15:25:07


Dear Mr. Klimuk,

I am not yet a Mrs., but you are welcome.

I wonder if I might then pose a question to you, assuming Jessica does not mind the utilization of her Blog space for it ?

Allegra



Blocked Response!05/26/2006 12:16:06


This response from IP Address 62.242.231.62 was blocked by the owner of this blog.



2. Leonid05/26/2006 12:27:07
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Bravo!!!



3. Hans-Jürg Buss05/26/2006 13:20:35


I completely agree.

This was always my opinion since I have started to breed Akhal Tekes. The intransparency of the present system was the reason why I never wanted to have inspected my horses by management of MAAK.



4. Nadja05/28/2006 13:14:17
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/


It absolutely not agree.
I would like, that studbook - was the help for me. That I choosing a horse saw estimations of its ancestors. And as I would like to know their lacks to work with its posterity. That there were no surprises.
I think, that all horses should be examined and appreciated. And all are brought in the book.
I agree that the owner can choose experts. But these experts should be dear АТ a society, as a minimum.
I in general would imitate - the book of the English thoroughbred or Arabian breed. Its rules rigid enough.



5. Jessica 05/30/2006 11:30:52


Nadja. Let's see if you can help us to see through a little bit more of the MAAK operations only by clarifying your role in MAAK as well as with Russian horse breeding.
I have received some communications from you earlier, the first mail you sent me was when you in 2003 announced that you would develop the web site www.maak.ru. You also sent me an email offering horses for sale from the stud farm Yulduz, contact person for sales was Nadja Abramova, "specialist on the AT breed and executive director of MAAK."
The horse from Yulduz are also published on www.maak.ru with an email address to Nadja Abramova.
You also sent us an email offering several horses from Akhalt-service as you had to many horses there in 2003 you needed to quickly sell off 50 horses. Some of them were offered cheap as they had defects such as bilateral cryptorchidism and parrot mouth, the horses with those defects were by the stallions Kortik, Makat, Aksum and Maksut (for me this is more important info than the fact the all of them, except one, are elite graded).
You signed this email with Chief of Stable Akhalt-service.
You have also emaild me invitations to several MAAK events.
In the same email were you informed about a MAAK event you offered your own horse Djirga for sale. She was offered for 8000USD at that time and could be sold pregnant to amongst others Gaygysiz who in your email was classed as "superelit".
Djirga was later sold via Ganna Zernova, who maintains www.maakcenter.org. and breed and trade Tekes under the name Insterburg.
(Djirga who was not elite as announced but arrived as class I did later gave a foal that was diagnosed with OCD.)
Please let me know if I have misunderstood the following:
You are employed chief of stables of Akhalt-service Ltd.
You are employed by MAAK for official communications as well as web development and hosting.
Nadja Abramova is Executive Director of MAAK as well as involved in the marketing and selling of Akhal-Teke horses from certain stud farms as well as performing gradings of horses from certain stud farms as well as being your employer for MAAK, an international breeder's association.
Ganna Zernova is employed by MAAK to maintain the web site www.maakcenter.org.
And now a few questions:
How and where was the position as web developer and official spokes person/communications MAAK announced and on what qualifications were you employed? Are you paid a salary from MAAK?
Do you think that other breeders and or members of MAAK can find it questionable that you have the positions you have and might even think that it affects the way the Akhalt-service horses are evaluated?
Do you think that people employed by MAAK the international national breed/breeders, association should be involved in selling Akhal-Teke horses?



6. Nadja05/30/2006 17:03:33
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/


Jessica. Yes, I shall try to explain to you.
In 2003 studfarm Julduz has asked to place advertising in the Internet about their horses. As I not the intermediary and also did not want to be engaged in sales, they have asked Abramova Nadja, that she mediated from their person. They do not have e-mail and access in the Internet.
Yes, I have made a site of selection center MAAK. It was my offer. I have developed design, have made a database, and I update the information, which to me give Rjabova and Abramova. I have made it free-of-charge, and I work with it free-of-charge now. I do not place any information " from myself ".
My chief (Akhalt-service) has paid money in MAAK for accommodation of advertising of horses. He pays advertising annually since 2003. Any interested person can place the horses to sale on site MAAK. The price of 20 dollars for 1 horse. There are discounts for wholesale accommodation.
Invitations to events in Russia - the request from Abramova and Rjabova.
I as shall give an explanation on stallions (Kortik, Makat, Aksum, Maksut).
Kortik was unilateral criptorh. He has given two bilaterial criptorhs and one unilateral criptorh. When Kortik has fallen, we have made opening. Opening has shown, that at him was the short seed rope.
All children of Makat absolutely normal now. But his many children after three years receive the second egg. Darym has received the second egg in five years. Other children after three years.
In a situation with Aksum - too most. His children after three years give eggs. There are as from him stallions at whom the egg "walks". They sometimes show an egg, and then again clean. Usually is a left egg, which little as right egg.
I as wanted to tell, that the parrot mouth transfers not Maksut. These are 100 %. The unique case was, and the mare was guilty. I do not have in it doubts.
History with Dzhirga as, that at you about Almaz. Only she has been appreciated in June, 2002. Under the Russian documents she was elite. There are their copies. At trip abroad began 1 class. An estimation did Abramova. Documents in both cases were written out by her. Concerning such changes I too have not received explanations. Concerning OCD I cannot tell of anything. At me was not foals from her. I did not do to her x-rays. I have offered some stallions, who were accessible in Moscow. But I did not choose for her a stallion. By the that moment she has been already sold to Ganna Zernova.
Yes, I work in studfarm "Akhalt-service". I work with clients, I do selection of horses, I buy new horses, I appoint work to sportsmen, etc.
No, I do not work in MAAK. Concerning a site I have already explained above. But me suggested to be official representative MAAK on the Internet. I have refused. Sometimes I help with translations of letters and answers to letters. But I do not answer from name MAAK. Only execution.
I not sure, that Ganna Zernova am employed. I think, that she works free-of-charge.
Your question on estimations of Akhalt-service has made laugh me. I think, that to some our horses of an estimation have underestimated. Let alone that old elite horses (Magma and Sajathanum) by a new estimation have received 1 class. Because of this new estimation, has decreased the point for an origin at their descendants. And where benefit? I do not mix up personal with work. Akhalt-service is a work. Site MAAK is a personal help.
I am not interested by a policy. I like horses and animals. It is much more, than people. But I read the literature which make about AT breed in Russia. For some horses it happens me is insulting. Horses are not guilty, that people play a policy. I have opinion, which I have written above.
That I think of sale of horses through MAAK. I do not see anything bad, that sale of horses goes through a site. It is the help to breeders. And breeders in the right to choose to itself of the intermediary in it. This intermediary there can be I, you, Abramova, etc. Julduz has chosen Abramova, as they are friends and frequently communicate.



1. Todd Keith05/16/2006 12:36:02
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com


It seems with the Alma/Morena points that the owner is more important than the horse itself. Morena was owned by Tito and Alma by us. Look at Osman's points in the 10th studbook as well. He was given 7.8 (on his MAAK papers) in type before being exported to our farm. His "official" points for type in the stud book are 7.3 (!!!) once we owned him.
When Sasha and Leonid saw him in Sweden he was given 8.3+ in type. That is quite a difference!
It is a shame that politics within the breed have become more important than the breed itself.
Todd



2. Jessica 05/16/2006 13:31:31


I think it is to flattering to refer to the errors as politics, I insist that the errors are due to incompentence and the misuse of resources for modernising the equipment used for record keeping. If it was really politics, us being punished for critising, Alma should have been moved back to the part bred section of the studbook where she was inscribed until she was bloodtyped in Sweden and those errors were detected and she could be registered with her correct father, Agnets, into the pure bred section of the stud book. Strangely enough she was supposed to have been bloodtyped when she was inscribed into the part bred book but obviously there were mistakes made or maybe the test came up with ten possible fathers and the one that wasn't sheep herding at the moment was chosen, but that we will never find out as it is a secret.
We were only lucky I guess as many others in west have seen their pure breds being moved to the part bred section by the record keepers in Ryazan.



3. Leonid05/16/2006 14:49:02
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


It is very sad. Such situation with full sisters Marta and Melana.



4. Todd Keith05/16/2006 17:10:31
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/


Leonid,
Maybe it is because you are on the shit list on not Marta's owners...
Marta's points for pedigree were 7.3 and Melana's 7.0.....
Full sisters.... strange again.



5. Leonid05/17/2006 01:25:02
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


It is nothing for me. I am ageinst of the valuations. Valuation is go-between me and my costomer and I don't want to pay for this.



6. Nathalie05/17/2006 04:21:55
Homepage: http://www.alamanstud.com


It is a very sad situation because studbook is the only reference for the akhal teke breed
So how is it possible to have a right evaluation of the quality of horses ?



7. Tabitha05/17/2006 06:56:00


Well.. so the studbook clearly is not reliable then...
When Agan was graded last year all I received were the grades itself... I would have appreciated the full paper: according to my MAAK papers when a horse is graded the MAAK papers mention the height/girth measurements at the moment of grading and the grades and the date of grading.
I as naieve AT-owner would have expected that at the mometn of grading all those data would have been written down on my official MAAK paper or that I would receive a new MAAK paper.

Non of those things happened.

On top of that:
According the MAAK rules for grading horses get points for movement also. However from persons present at the grading I heard that non of the horses were judged on movement.

I as owner would like to get not only the grades but also the comments on my horse and to why those particular grades were given. All I received were static grades, no comments whatsoever, no signatures (to proof it's they are the official grades, that would be nice too) and no grading list as shown on the MAAK website: [url]http://www.maakcenter.org/ENG/BREED/grading.html[/url].

You can imagine I was very disappointed about all this.

Not to mention the fact that according to his grades he should have received class I. Yet he was placed in class II.
Now I don't know why, I only can guess... perhaps his measurements? or his parentage (that grade was low, the rest were average)? But the MAAK gradign rules say that horses are placed in their respective Class based on type grades. So that means he should be class I and not class II.

I thought the grading would make me clear as to where my horse would stand in breed value, now I only have more questions as before. All I figured out is that my horse appearantly is not worth breeding to. But it would be nice to know why.



8. Todd Keith05/17/2006 07:43:25
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com


Leonid,
I understand your point more now. But this does raise the question of the correctness of the studbook information. I was told that the points for pedigree were calculated from a matrix. How can this change between siblings? I did a quick check for other full siblings last night and found the following with different points:
2783 Lolla 6.5
2779 Lada 7.5

1192 Dorkush 8.0
2768 Keik 7.0

2780 Lama 6.7
2781 Lansada 7.0

2835 Mesele 7.5
2854 Molva 8.0
Magrib 8.0

2965 Fonema 8.5
2966 Fortuna 8.0

Most of these horses are reported as being graded the same year so any changes in the parents classes would not reflect on the horses points. In Russia you have the breed shows. Here we do not have this opportunity yet and rely on the studbook information to market our horses and their offspring. This makes this information very important to us. It is a shame that this incorrect information will be available to future breeders who might use it and not understand it's TRUE value (= 0).

Todd



9. Nadja05/17/2006 11:21:27
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/


Requirements to an estimation have been officially changed in 2002. requirements to measurements, an origin and quality of posterity have very strongly changed. Therefore to all horses has been made reassessment . Also have come in the new book with new estimations. We too had horses who in 9 book were elite. By new estimations they began 1 class. In Russia too a lot of dissatisfied. But new estimations are officially authorized in the Russian ministry for studbooks.



10. Jessica 05/17/2006 12:28:08


Tabitha. I'm sorry to hear that your horse was graded class II. If you like his looks, and mostly his character then you still made the right choice, that is the most important.
To make you feel better I will tell you about the day I got my first big doubt about the breeding value classification. I went to Finland to look at a stallion called Saljut, his father Sumbar, is the maternal great grandfather, to your horse. Saljut was given class I as breeding value and I looked at him for a client who wanted a nice riding horse, Saljut had four club feet and parrot mouth. Since then I do not trust the breeding classification system much. I guess your horse wasn't that bad?? And he still got class II.
However, there are few class II horses in the stud book as those horses wouldn't be interesting as breeding animals, we found one stallion so far in the 10th stud book, Murager, he is the father of the stallion Murgab that was bred by Insterburg Stud farm and exported to Canada, Murgab was mentioned in this blog as he was marketed as multiple World Champion.

It is certainly not easy to be a newcomer to this breed!!

Who should you believe, the breeders, the studbook, stallion owners??

The grading experience you had is shared by many, many owners and breeders in Europe as well as in the USA. Many of them have contacted us and expressed the same feeling of utter disappointment as you have.
You are not alone!
For those of us that have experience from other horse breeds it is even more frustrating as we have been spoiled by a completetely different approach to genetics, population management, breeders, horse owners, data quality, stud book intergrity, marketing etc, than what is experienced with the Teke associations and stud book.



11. Nadja05/17/2006 14:10:00
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/


Jessica. Who put a class elite for Paikhas? A mare is simple enough. Closer to a class 1, instead of elite.



12. Leonid05/17/2006 14:12:02
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Nadia, estimations, wich are officially authorized in the Russian ministry are nothing. Only we - breeders must decide this question. We do this bussines and do investment into this breed.



13. Leonid05/17/2006 14:27:01
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


It is interesting, ministr created this estimations himself? This estimations were created in VNIIK without consultations with breeders.



14. Nadja05/17/2006 15:44:15
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/


Leonid, we with you already repeatedly discussed it by phone. I have not changed the opinion. I want to have estimations from people, they are not owners АТ horses.
It is necessary to reckon with opinion of the law. It - anarchy. Any laws are thought out with people. And them not always assert by voting.
I know your opinion. We shall not be repeated.
I agree that the previous system of estimations is obsolete. She needed to be changed. And I agree (basically) how give an estimation now.



15. Jessica 05/17/2006 15:51:11


Nadja. The Swedish Akhal-Teke Association had the honor to have Alexander Klimuk and Leonid Babayev as judges at our national (or was it international, ring secretary was Maria Marquise, UK we had a Norwegian stallion in the show as well as a Spanish handler!) breed show in 2003. I must say that I think we all learned a lot from them during the judgeing of the Swedish Tekes.
Paikhas was awarded elite class by those judges. However, they had the possibility to look at her from all angles as well as in walk and trot. Breeders might have different breeding goals and preferences and if you think she is simple you are free to have that opinion.
We have had Tatyana Ryabova (1997,1998), Geldy Kiarizov(1998), Leonid Babayev(2003) and Alexander Klimuk (2003) to help us out in the evaluation of the breed type of the Swedish Tekes, I would say that we are lucky!



16. Jessica 05/17/2006 16:05:11


Nadja. Who is we? As I have been involved in the "selection" of judges for a few breed shows I must say that the integrity and competence of the judge is more important than if the judge owns horses.
The the breed plan that will be the foundation for the instructions for judges, should be worked out by professionals that can openly declare their economical interest in the breed.
These professionals must earn the approval/trust of the people that show horses for inspection and openly declare any economical interest in the breed.
It is wrong to have the same person that works out the breed plan, works out and approves instructions for judges, inspect horses, approves other judges, publish the studbook, runs the breeder's association(national as well as international), sells, owns and deals horses and semen of the breed.



17. Jessica05/17/2006 16:26:17


Nadja. I understand that the instructions for judges and for grading have been changed since 2002. For me it means that those points should be applied to all horses that have been inspected after 2002. How can a horse, like for example Almaz, that was inspected in 1998, be reevaluated in 2000 for new grading rules that came into effect in 2002? For me that is not possible. I do not agree with the new rules and I have chosen not to show my horses for inspection since 1998, I protest against the obvious fact that points are being given to horses on paper when the horse has not been inspected since the new rules came into effect. If I have misunderstood anything I apologise and ask for a more thorough explanation of the present, I would say, confusing situation.



18. Leonid05/17/2006 21:53:16
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Nobody dos not know and dosn't look new instructions of estimation, beside of staffs of Institute.

Nadia, anarchy means situation when Institute can decide all points of breed life and breed politic with ignore of opinion of society. In this case Institute cane change instructions every day and every hour.
Nadia you work for Akhalt-service, are you sure that owner of this Stud has same opinion? I supose, you, like person with letter off Akhalt-service, have to realize official opinion of this Stud. In different case your opinion is only your privet opinion.



19. Leonid05/18/2006 00:25:21
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


By the way, mother of Paikhas Parikhan is, not less then Champion of the breed in 1998. She is far from simple.



20. Tabitha05/18/2006 04:21:19


Jessica,
Thanks for your sympathy. I am really happy with my Agan and he's really becoming wonderfull at the moment. Now he's in training and his muscles start developping and everything is ok about him.
I have strong suspisions it was mostly his size that did it, but well I don't know that for sure since I don't know the measurements taken at the Grading.
He was gelded the week after I received the gradings ... and started growing and hasn't stopped growing since!! If it was his height then perhaps his classification would be different now.

So I have learned my lesson: grading is an estimation at a given moment. At an other moment the grading might be different.

If I had realized this at that time and I would have been in the position to keep him stallion (have my own farm) then I probably would have waited another year or two before letting him be graded again. If I ever get in the luxury position of being able to become a breeder (which is not likely to happen ) I'll just follow my own instincts...

By the way: I was expecting not to high grades since he was not really big at the moment and had no muscles whatsoever due to an accident and the resulting mental trauma the year before. But class II ... that was a shock.. And his grades for type and conformation were ok. I wouldn't have given him an 8 or 9 either. So I'm content with the 7's he got for that... but well there the question's come since the maak grading rules say that with those grades for type he would be estimated class I....
Ok I take that back... I just went to the MAAK website to check again (like I did yesterday) if I wasn't telling lies and now the table saying what grades are nedded for which class has changed. Now it also tells you what grades are needed for parentage and measurements and so on to end up in which class. That makes it more clear!

This topic really is effective !



21. Tabitha05/18/2006 04:37:05


I just read that horses that are never seen get grades too (in Jessica's comment). That's really weird.

I was thinking Agan had a low parentage grade because perhaps some of his ancestor's in the last 4 generations were never seen and graded and therefore he never could get high points for parentage.

But so I was wrong about that then



22. Leonid05/18/2006 04:45:59
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Tabitha, estimation is joke and nothing more. Horse must be pure blood and nothing more. If you have pure blood horses, you can breed them, like pure blood horses and put studpapers for them. All other points are nothing and joke of VNIIK. MAAK hasn't to this joke nothing. We (breeders) are very stupied and delicate, so Ryabova (staff of Institute) took this MAAK to her pocket and we are very glad of this.
My congratulations, you bought horse for your headache.
Institute uses this estimate for this scandals.
Status of pure breed excluses any estimate.



23. Todd Keith05/18/2006 09:12:20
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com


Leonid,
I understand your point more and more now. I think you are right that the gradings should be left out, specially now when we see that they are not reliable. I also understand now why Sasha was so upset after the Moscow/Pyatigorsk shows last year. Shows like Equiross become more and more important. There were rumors last year that a certain person "bought" the Moscow show for $50,000... Not sure if it is true but his horses placed nicely... Equiross is not yet corrupted by the politics in the breed and still being judged by a committee and not a dictator.
Todd



24. Jessica 05/18/2006 09:19:06


Tabitha. Out of curiosity, how high was Agan over the withers when he was graded as a three-year-old and do you also have his cannon bone circumference? It is normal that stallions have a growth spurt after they are gelded. Geldings tend to be taller and thinner than stallions that are normally shorter and more muscled.
You can really see the "gelding gender" in a horse. Agan was graded as a three year old, his final height should be reached when he is 6 to 8 eight years old.



25. Tabitha05/18/2006 10:07:57


Hi Jessica,

Like I said.. I have no idea. I was not present at the grading and those data were not send to me even though I asked (no one received those data by the way) and it had been months since I had measured him miself (1.47 in october(?) 2004).

about the gelding grow spurt... it's too bad we'll never know how big he would have become as stallion.. but I'm really curious how big he's becoming now...

I should still tell MAAK Agan is gelded now I think about it. But I am not really motivated to do so. Too busy with doing nice things as riding my horse.



26. Jessica 05/18/2006 10:16:11


I think that if we should keep the system of inspection of the horses that are inscribed into the stud book we should consider the following two important points:
1. How are the inspections performed and why. In some breeds a horse has to fulfil certain performance, type and conformational criteria to be allowed to be entered into the stud book, there might also be different sections of a stud book and the inspection can tell you to which section the horse will belong to.
The horses that apply for stud book/breed status will have to go through physical on site inspections as well as "paper inspections" and in some cases parentage verfication and veterinary checks for genetic disorders etc.
The inspections are performed by a group of people that are ackredited by the mother stud book to perform the checks.
The owner of the horse inteded for stud book entering will take and active descision to apply for inspection, is informed on the rules and regulations and will, at the point of inspection, immediately get the inspection report and result on a written and signed form. The owner can then make an appeal to a board of appeal with a certain time frame if he feels that the results of the inspection is wrong.
The results of the inspections are also published on a regular basis as well as in the stud books that are published according to the rules.
For Tekes there is one rule for inscription into the stud book, they must show a parentage verification that without doubt show that the horse has both parents inscribed into the stud book.
I cannot find anywhere any rule that say that the horse should be graded and classified and how those classifications will be performed.
When you look in the present stud book you can see that each and every horse is graded and classified for breeding value, it is unclear if the classification refers to estimated or proven breeding value. How, where and when are those inspections performed? We do not know, in some cases the horse is graded from the zootechnical pictures the owners are encoraged to send in for registration, sometimes horses are graded in their pastures without preparation or even without the owner knew about it.
Those two methods for performing such an important task are below amateurism and lack of respect for the breed and their owners.
Like Leonid said, the inspections should be volountary or nonexistant as long as only purity is the criteria for becoming an Akhal-Teke.
Should we keep the inspections, they must be performed according to proven horse inspection traditions by professionals assigned by a democraticly approved board that openly declares their economical interest in the breed.

2. What information is published for each horse in the stud book and what quality does it have.
Let's look at a horse in the 10th stud book, I pick Almaz again as we have already talked about him. He is on page 23 in the volume for stallions, information is published in Russian only, we have transcribed the following:
1127 Almaz
buckskin May 20 1988 Tchagorta, Kalmykia, Russia (gpk 9,248)
155-154-174-19.0 8(pedigree)-8(type)-4(measurements)-8(conformation)-0(performance)-6(offspring) 1 Class 1 Category 2000
Owner: KaraKum T&J Keith, Sweden
4 generation pedigree is presented in a grid.
Not raced. Here official results from the race track are published.
Offspring
a list of offspring is presented here.
Ok, so what does his points tell me:
1. points for pedigree, I can see his pedigree on his page and judge it myself, I do not need anyone elses opinions, numbers are solely based on subjective judgements of the horses in the pedigree.
Subjective judgements i can do myself, I am a breeder and a grown-up.
2. type, subjective judgement made by one person only, type is personal taste, type does not matter for inscription into the stud book, every horse inscribed is already a Teke. I prefer to look at the horse myself and see if he fits to my breeding program. T. Ryabova have no clue about my breeding program she cannot decide what type I want to use. T.Ryabova is not a breeder.
3. Conformation, subjective judged by one person only. As I breed horses for soundness and riding purposes, those points tell me nothing because I have no idea how they are given it does not make sense to me when I look at the point and the horse at the same time. The fact that Tekes are only judged for comformation from the side may explain a part of the mystery but far from everything. I can judge the conformation myself and decide if the faults are good or bad for my breeding program, if breeders cannot do that they, it will reflect in their breedings.
5. Performance, Almaz raced in Tblisi but for some reasons the races were not considered official so it falsely says that he was not raced. If the horse has other achievements that will give me a hint about rideability, temperament (who no one working with the stud book seem to understand is a very important trait in performance horses) etc it is not noted. So I will have to check other performance records and official tests myself.
5. Offspring, Almaz had in 1998 when he was graded two offspring that received elite class the third offspring that is listed has not been inspected but I guess already graded from zootechnical pictures, photoshopped or not, I do not know!
However, I thought that a horse should have at least 10 graded offspring to get points for quality of offspring, but those points are based on subjective and maybe even manipulated data. I will have to check out the offspring myself because I'm a breeder and I have done my homework on this breed and I know what I want.

For me it is enough with name, age, color, breeder, pedigree and
measurement (if they could be taken objectively with tools that as much as possible avoid mistakes, we all know that it is not the case, so what the heck I still have to double check the height!)

And last but not least, I want to use a stallion for my mares in spring 2006, the studbook I got in my mail a week ago is published in 2005 but only contains data to the year 2000?! It leaves a black hole of FIVE years of Teke breeding.







27. Jessica 05/18/2006 12:00:55


Checked Almaz' points for measurements with the table on MAAK's website for how the measurements should be graded and found out the he qualifies for a 5 in measurements not a 4, this is a detail but again a proof that the organisations own protocols are not followed not even by the same person that constructed, approved and implemented them. Time for some serious Quality Management here!



28. Leonid05/18/2006 12:07:40
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


I am so glad, that you Jessica and Todd came to this point. Necesary to eat a lot of shit fo this coming.



29. Jessica05/18/2006 12:46:25


Tabitha. Enjoy your riding while you can. I have been crippled by pregnancies and stupidity, every now and then I test to see if my body can cope with riding, last Sunday it was time for a new test, unfortunately not a comfortable Teke but a Hannoverian, now I'm walking like an old woman with diapers I think I might be allergic to riding other breeds than the Tekes
However, Tabitha, be aware of the fact that a Russian official have been in Holland and there officially appraised (following official Russian state protocols), your private property in a way that may have caused you economical damage. You have paid the Russian state for this "service" and you should have the right to all protocols involved in this Russian activity on Dutch territory concerning your property.




30. Jessica 05/18/2006 12:48:33


Leonid. Instead of eating shit you should have sent us the stud book



31. Leonid05/18/2006 13:41:03
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Eat it with my pleaser.



32. Nadja05/28/2006 12:54:53
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/


I apologize for silence. Was on fishing.
Leonid. Concerning new estimations: my opinion coincides with opinion of my chief, concerning change of estimations at horses from 9 studbook. I too am dissatisfied with it. I think, that the horse should change the class 3 times for the life. The first estimation in 2 years. The second estimation in 6 years. And a third estimation not earlier than 10 years when it is possible to judge posterity and serviceability of a horse. But in any way not in 18 years.
Jessica. I think, that the basic problem at Almaz - low growth, which does not allow him to be the elite . 4 and 5 points are a little. But I know the Russian stallions with such growth, which elite. Here I agree with your discontent.
My opinion about Pajkhas - my personal opinion. In Russia horses similar her are appreciated by 1 class.
About Parikhan. Yes, Champion among three mares. It was good luck. It too my personal opinion.
I think, that Klimuk puts high estimations. In comparison with average elite mares, who are given birth at him, Pajkhas will strongly lose. But his this opinion, and he is the qualified expert. You could submit results of his estimation in MAAK. I think, that she would be recognized.
But I agree that the old system of estimations needed to be changed. But it was necessary to change her publicly. And to make more accessible.



33. Jessica 05/30/2006 12:23:44


Nadja. I can agree with you to 100%, now more than earlier, that winning a Russian/"World" Championship is pure luck, or maybe pure politics (you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours)!
To me it is of little importance as my breeding goal to a certain exctent differs from the MAAK policies of rewarding defect and sub fertile animals with world champion titles.
The fact that every mare we have bred and showed has been elite graded by either T. Ryabova, G. Kiarizov, A. Klimuk or L. Babyaev is for us merely an indicator that we are working in the right direction, as there are so many important traits of a horse that is not measured in the breed classifications, such as health and soundness, temperament, rideability, traits that are very important for us. The gradings of a horse can of course be discussed and questioned and a discussion on type is always welcome on my blog.
When it comes to Paikhas in particular, as you have chosen to pick her out as an example of, an in your eyes class 1 mare, that has been graded elite I can only comment that compared to the elite graded mares/fillies I have seen from the total Teke population in Turkmenistan, Russia, Europe and the USA, I think she qualifies for the elite class. However, I'm obviously subjective and I was not the person who gave her the elite grading. Maybe, we need, like you suggested for Gaygysiz already in 2003 a class superelite to?
I am not interested in submitting any grading or show results to MAAK as the results are obviously corrupted once published. How would you, BTW know that any show results would be recognized by MAAK, are you involved in other functions than web development and communications?
About Almaz, again, it was not I that recommended him for breeding, twice graded him elite, ranked him as the third best stallion in Europe and graded his two first fillies elite. T. Ryabova did this, and he still looks the same, she also mentioned his overall quailities as a sire rendered him the elite, in spite of the fact that he is below average height for Teke stallions. Had she graded him class I herself it wouldn't have been a problem for me as long as correct points and results are published. As his points are published in a stud book that cover past history I cannot find anywhere in that time that T. Ryabova graded Almaz class I. If she at this point, hopefully after having graded his pure offspring, which at his age should be more interesting than himself wants to change his classification that is another issue.



34. Nadja05/30/2006 17:23:38
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/


At me in general doubts, that Ryabova looked the edited book. Tactlessly in relation to the European horses. Especially Alaman and Ashug have elite 2 - superelite. And a difference in growth on 2 sm. I shall tell more. Some horses in Ahalt-service have one estimations. At reception of the international passport at change of the owner of an estimation are changed in the smaller party. I return such passports back.
Concerning the Championships is a lottery. But on taste and color - comrades are not present. Each judge chooses on the eye. And frequently their opinions do not coincide. Sometimes the best horses do not receive a title. But they always have chance the next year.



35. Leonid05/31/2006 11:23:01
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Espesialy when some judges are anknown to society.



36. Leonid06/01/2006 06:28:24
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


Parikhan was Champion of the breed of Central Russia. There were such Studs like Shamborount, biggest and bestist Akhaltekinets, Russian leggend and some other. I can say that other candidates for this title had scare of such company. She was Champion and this is truth.



37. Nadja06/01/2006 17:07:21
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/


Yes I do not doubt of hers Champion's title. Gave a title and will not take away back. But, if to be exact was six mares. Two two-year-old mares (Gi Huri and from Russian legenda). Three adult mares from Shamborant studfarm. And one partbred mare. And it too the truth. But Parikhas was the Champion. I think, that she was the best mare from six. But the structure of mares was mediocre. But I compare with last championships. Quality of horses represented on the Championship very much has increased.



38. Leonid06/03/2006 06:49:10
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru


There was such beautifull mare like Model /Dasht-Malva/, but Parikhan was first. Ofcourse, Parikhan is some boneless, but she is very typical.



39. Jessica 06/03/2006 13:02:11


Horses entered in a show are judged for what they look like the day of the show and how they compare to the other horses in that particular show. Basta. Parikhan in 1998 was the winner of her ring and I do not think that any of us that attended thought that the judges had a difficult job to pick her as the winner at that time.
When a horse is inspected for being entered into a breed stud book the horse is compared to the breed standard as well as how the horse compares to the whole stud book population. Therefore the inspection points will tell you more about how the horse compares to the world population of horses. Parikhan is class elite.
I'm sure that Parikhan who is a beautiful Teke would do good in a breed show today, she might even win, depending on the competition.



1. Tabitha01/31/2007 03:47:37


And to who??? We're all curious to that of course .



2. Heather01/31/2007 09:13:25


Orion is a gentleman... he doesn't want to string the ladies along only to disappoint them!



3. Jessica01/31/2007 11:32:32


Well. preliminary breedings were discussed but not agreed on last night. I have told many people that the good thing about being married and breeding horses is that you seldom have time to quarrel over every day things but spend most of the time and energy on the horses. In other words, horses are good for the marriage.
We'll see how Orion handles his first mare, we do not drug or immobilize the mares when they are covered so they will soon teach him how to treat a lady!



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