1. Leonid03/01/2006 05:39:35
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

I will create Book of Asyl-Teke, and horses from this Book will have the highest marketing, like egiptian arabs between arabs. That will be pure, natural horses. I can not fight ageinst General Stud Book, but I can create Creame of this Stud Book.
It is illusion to get possibility to control General Stud Book.

2. Todd Keith03/01/2006 13:57:06
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com

I've never been against semen as long as it is regulated. It should be limited to sires of a certain type (above 8.0 for example) that have been proven to be improvers of the breed. Semen can help the overall population by increasing the type. BUT, if not regulated it could be the death of the typical Akhal-Teke. If people select a sire because of semen quality and not breeding quality it could further the loss of type and quality within the breed. As an individual breeder, I would not sell semen from any of our sires, only the sons. I would, however, like to use, for example, Gaigizis on Rosanna which is not possible today (piro, import/export problems, etc) but could be if he was collected. If quality sires were available on semen it could help the breed, but of course, irresponsible breeding with semen could do the opposite.
Cloning should be banned, period!
Embryo transfer should be highly regulated to broodmares of extreme value (like Pampa). No broodmare in the west is valuable enough to even be considered today...

Todd

3. Petra03/01/2006 14:24:00
Homepage: http://www.mujweb.cz/www/akhalteke

100% agree with you, Todd.
As I know, owner of Gaigysyz, Ms. Shabashova plans to make frozen semen of him and also of Tokhtamysh.

4. Allegra Steck03/01/2006 14:46:06

Jessica,

The ATAA already has regulations in place regarding embryo transfer. This was done several years ago.

The general consensus on this blog seems to be that ET is an easy, casual, snap-your-fingers sort of process, and an inevitable eventuality for breeders everywhere. This is a highly misinformed notion. ET is expensive, time-consuming, frustrating and still at only 50% success rate, which is unlikely to change any time soon, based on the intricacies of the female equine reproductive sysytem. To have the process done at clinics or centers offering it, the base price begins at around $7000USD, with no gauarntee of a live foal. This is really not in the budget of the average breeder, especially if that particular mare was able to carry her own foal to term. ET is an option to be selected when a breeding-quality mare is able to conceive, but unable to carry, her own foal, usually due to physical trauma to her uterus or other physical injuries to the mare which would make the weight of a pregnancy too difficult. It is not for the use of super-breeding, or creating mutiple foals from one mare, at least not ethically. Fortunately, for the above described reasons, ET is self-limiting in it's own way.

Todd, I have to disagree with you on your opinion that no mare in the West is worth having ET done. Senova is the #2-graded mare in the US, with excellent type and conformation, who also competed quite successfully at high national levels in sport, in open competition against all other breeds. Exactly the type of purebred mare who should be reproducing. It was no fault of her own that her uterus was compromised in her first pregnancy.

Allegra

5. Jessica 03/01/2006 18:19:35

Allegra. The ATAA cannot dictate the rules for the mother stud book. ATAA is one of two associations in the USA that is optional for breeders/owners to register with. I can do whatever I want in the USA and will, without asking ATAA if I am allowed or not, I will have to follow the rules of the mother stud book though, as they are the only body today that can register and issue valid papers for pure bred Akhal-Tekes. Obviously the mare you took eggs from is very valuable for you (breeding value unknown though)and you are allowed to register an embryo transfer foal from her by the mother stud book. In can only wish you good luck in your work with her.

6. Jessica 03/01/2006 18:22:56

Todd. I did not know we had discussed using Gaygisiz for Rosanna. I do not agree that he would be the best choice for her.
I'd better stay home more instead of spending time on horse farms in Ocala.

7. Jessica 03/01/2006 18:26:14

Alllegra. I do not know where you read that the embryo transfer process or anything else involving a breeding"snap-your-finger" process on this blog. However, I visited a stud farm yesterday that had really good success with embroy transfer working with a vet that has a 100% live foal guarantee for his embryo transfers. You might want to contact him if you have problems in Virginia.

8. Jessica 03/01/2006 18:29:24

Allegra. I forgot, who will be the improver to Senova, I guess you have selected a stallion that is better or equal to her as a sire for the foal considering the costs and risks involved in the embryo transfer. Finding a good stallion for her in the US defenitely cannot have been a snap-your-finger process.

9. Leonid03/02/2006 02:35:53
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Possible you forgot about effect of ersatz mother for foal. Possible it is not importent for halfbred breeds, but akhalteke horses are pure. In any case ET foals are ersatz too. You can use them for everything, but not for pure breeding.
5000 years this horses are breeding by natural rules for best impressure of man about horses. Ask yourself: "Who are you? Why do you breed this horses? You must know full responsibility of your activity. Today we have one direction, horses go from east to west. In the case of using of biotecnology it will be only one way, and your horses will be horses, but not akhalteke. Why? Becourse most importent breeders don't want this. I suggest to be together and to respect each other. Akhalteke breeding is very expencive pleasure. Cheapist way not already right way.
I am doubt, that this conversation coud be in the case of thoroughbred breed.

10. Leonid03/02/2006 05:14:32
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Todd, we must have only one reason to use somebody Sire into the breeding. He must be pure and natural. And only two valuers we can get. One and main is oppinion of breeder himself, another is money of customer. This is objective oppinion. When you send horse to expo, you have to submit to the valuation of judges and you do it voluntarily. Other terms are fetters for breeder.

11. Allegra Steck03/02/2006 10:41:17

Leonid,

The surrogate dam of an embryo transfer foal has no effect on it's genetic makeup whatsoever. This is proven scientific fact.

Allegra

12. Leonid03/02/2006 11:41:25
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

I know, that it is not proved fact. More better can say about it Klimuk and Ryabova too. Why this ET not use in thoroughbred, where mares can cost tens millions. Becourse it is not proved fact.

13. Jessica 03/02/2006 14:46:18

The surrogate dam of the embryo transfer foal will effect the foal, it might not be the genetical make-up but other factors affect a horse as well.
I think the decision on how and when to use ET must be analysed from several aspects. Is the goal for the breeder to only maintain or multiply a genetical package that is supposedly superior to others or is it to produce a horse with certain sought after features from a certain breed like temperament and performance ability.
Experience and studies mostly in sport horse breeds show that the choice of surrogate mother certainly will affect the foal's future performance abilities due to the mentality of the mare.
One also very interesting aspect is the nutritional value of the mares milk, many studies from the 90's show that the fat, protein and other vital components in the mares milk varies quite a lot between horse breeds.
When breeding quality horses I think you must certainly investigate carefully all aspects of your selections and decisions.
Spontaneously from the little I know about ET and horse breeding I think the surrogate mother should be selected very carefully and be from the same breed as the donor. This is probably more important in breeds with many unique traits like the Tekes. In Allegra's case though when she uses ET to take offpsring from an in her mind exceptional performer, the FEI performance abilities could be enhanced by using a warmblood as a surrogate mother.

14. Leonid03/03/2006 00:40:58
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

It is normal for industrial crossing, but not for pure breeding.

15. Allegra Steck03/03/2006 16:04:50

Jessica,

I am very curious about this veterinarian who offers a 100% live foal guarantee on ET foals. Is this guarantee dependent upon the age and uterine condition of the donor mare or is it unconditional regardless ? Does he maintain his recipient herd or is that the owner's responsibility as well and does that enter into the end result ? This is the first guarantee I have ever heard of.

Allegra

16. Alexandr03/26/2006 07:30:07

Statute of biotechnologies in Teke breed is not developed by VNIK. Even though Ryabova thinks that question is competence of Institute. It can lead and even lead to many misunderstandings. For ex. foal of surrogate mother that is not belong to pure akhalteke breed, will (foal)never be admited trueborn teke. Ryabova understand this fact very good. So we can understand disappointment of people who risked their money and in fact received unadmitted foals.