The Russians or Turkmen do not own passion for this breed or passion for horses. I have done my homework and been to Ashgabad, Stavropol and Moscow. I have not seen more passion there than I see here in the west, the roaring at the race tracks when the horses approach the finishing line, the applause and screaming of thousands of people in the big dressage or show jumping shows in Europe, the pure passion and joy of the owners in the Arabian show rings. The true passion of breeders of all kinds of rare breeds when they are allowed to present their "apple of the eyes" to a bigger audience.
The Teke owners in the west normally have to spend quite a bit of money, time and energy in aquiring a Teke, then they have to spend quite a bit of money, time and energy to promote it, then they have to spend a lot more money and time than their Russia collegues to register the Tekes they breed. Then if they ever get the opportunity, they will have to spend a lot of time, money and energy to have their horses inspected "Russian warmblood" style, by one person whose "verdict" can not be appealed (I am ashamed to admit this to western collegues).
Only to hear from the Russian collegues the Tekes in the west are not typical, or if you get good points, "we do not care about the points anyways". (unless Tekes are promoting their horses to the west then again, the "warmblood" points count) If you try to understand why your horses are not as good as the Russians by trying to understand the breed standard you will be called a "warmblood" person as if this is something bad when I try to understand the warmblood style inspections.
You will also realise that you will get null and zero support from the so called international breeders association at the same time as western horse people in many cases look at you and your operations with very sceptical eyes as the studbook/breed is managed from Russia.
If you after all this, still stay with the Teke breed I would say that you have very strong, passionate feelings for this breed.
In other words Teke breeders are the most passionate horse breeders in the world, no matter were they are, and if passion is the strongest and most powerful tool to breed outstanding Tekes we all do it !

1. shael10/12/2006 11:38:45
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Jessica, I am agree with you, I wrote "beside of rare exclusive breeders". Look for others around.

2. Jessica D.10/12/2006 13:16:17

I totally agree! That really seems to be the case here...and it's sad indeed.

3. Hans-Jürg Buss10/12/2006 14:14:31

Jessica, well and with much passion said.

4. Darya10/12/2006 14:44:29
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

"Others around" are stuck just in the same game.

So right Jessica. Well said.

5. Nadja10/12/2006 18:06:41
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

Silly and inveraciously concerning reception of documents on horses!
Annually submit the same documents in MAAK, as Russian breeders.
In the autumn:
1. The list of movement of a livestock (new and sold, dead, exchange horses)
2. The list of the current livestock.
3. The selection plan of a covering for spring of the next year (selection of a stallion to a mare; the list of mares, which for the first time go in a covering)
4. Measurements of all horses (height at withers, body length, chest girth, cannon girth)
5. The estimation of horses (type and conformation)
6. DNA analyses or immunogenetich test on newborn foals or blood of foals or hair from a mane.
7. Money for registration of horses, publication of passports + money for blood or DNA analysis (if you have sent it on analyses in laboratory of institute of horse breeding of Russia)
In the summer (after a birth of all foals):
1. The sheet about a covering and a birth of foals with the description of marks.
At the end of autumn you receive documents on all horses.
I on a regular submit all reports in MAAK. And I do not have any problems with it. Those foreign breeders who do also, too have no any problems with reception of passports and registration of horses.
Now not the problem to send any documents through e-mail or by post.
The everything else without comments. Worthy horses, they and in Africa are worthy horses. And it is a lot of such horses in Europe and America.

6. Tabitha10/13/2006 07:30:16

Dear Nadja,
Just curious.
If you annually send the estimation of a horse's type and conformation, who did the estimation then?
Is it the estimation MAAK (T. ryabova) gave your horses and is it 1)the same estimation over and over or 2)does MAAK come by every year and yo receive the grades in time to send them back to MAAK?
Or 3) do you send MAAK your own estimations?

Another passionate Teke owner (unfortunately no breeder :- .

7. Jessica10/13/2006 08:50:40

I'm sorry, I cannot see why I should even try to send all this paperwork to MAAK until the manage to do the basics: register pure bred Tekes with correct information and publish the studbook according to their own rules.
How many breeders in the west send in all this information annually? It would be great if you could share some statistics (hopefully not copyrighted or confidential) for how many foals that were registered in Germany, Italy, Switzerland, France, the UK and USA in 2005. Also how many broodmares that were covered in the above mentioned countries in 2005. That's really interesting statistics.

8. Jessica10/13/2006 08:52:15

Good questions Tabitha, I'm looking forward to the answer.

9. Nadja10/13/2006 09:37:49
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

These are own estimations of a livestock specialist in studfarm. So did during Soviet times earlier. And so it was kept to this day. These estimations are not main, but them take into account and fix. Experts cannot arrive to some studfarms because of any reasons. Therefore livestock specialists send the estimations together with good photos. And these estimations are considered "conditional" till the moment of acknowledgement as their experts MAAK. I think, it is convenient. It is especially convenient to watch evolution of own estimations at growth of horses.

10. Nadja10/13/2006 09:44:51
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

The estimation of our livestock is done annually by T.Rjabova or Abramova. I only send my opinion, my look. In studbook there are horses with estimations from Ryabova. It arranges me. I completely trust her in this plan. Though I not always agree with estimations of our horses.
It is very difficult to look on the horses unbiassedly. But I try to wash my eyes the tea and to look at them also, as on another's Teke.

11. Jessica10/13/2006 09:51:02

Ok, so we all shall grade our horses ourselves. Great then there is no need for us here to pay for inspectors to come out. Do I understand correctly that we perform our own estimations, then those will be compared with the pictures of the horses that we send in?
Please clarify the procedure of how conditional estimations become acknowledged by MAAK. I agree with you that this system is very - convenient. But is it of any value at all in the work with the breed?
Has MAAK ever heard of a computer software called Photoshop?

12. Nadja10/13/2006 10:10:08
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

Jessica
At me "curve" English. It is very difficult to express the ideas in another's language.
Estimations from the owner are not official. They conditional. They only for internal use. Sometimes experts agree with them when see a horse alive. Sometimes they categorically with them not concordant. I send the opinion, my sight on Teke. Photos of horses are necessary for a card index, instead of for comparison of estimations.
Estimations become recognized when with it experts agree. You gave them your estimations. They have looked your horses. They have agreed with you. In this case it is possible to tell, that yours opinions have coincided. Also that everyone were objective. Also that you see a horse equally. If estimations have not coincided, you can discuss. It is very cognitive for both parties. And it is interesting.
Photoshop know all. And so? Nobody will do estimations on photos. Can be only in that case when the horse already has been earlier appreciated and seen by experts. But I not sure that they will agree to it.

13. Tabitha10/13/2006 10:20:05

Thank you for your response Nadja,

So if I understand your own livestock expert judges them (is he an expert based on experience only or did MAAK give him a permission to do so) and then these estimations are noted as "conditional"(or provisional/preliminary) until MAAK has had the time to verify these estimations itself (by T. Ryabova in person)?

So say.. I have a foal, and it has grown into a 3-year old I could estimate it myself and this will be written down in the MAAK registers untilll MAAK has time to come over to my part of the world to see for itself?

Jessica,
Seen the passion of us Teke lovers one might hope that we are all so honoust and in love with our breed that we wouldn't even dream of photoshopping our photo's!

14. Jessica10/13/2006 10:32:15

The procedures and do not make sense to me I'm sorry I do not understand why you should send your estimations to MAAK.
Of course you evaluate your breeding stock. The fact that you have the opportunity to discuss the results of the evaluation with Ryabova or Abramova is news, I and many others in the west have been given points without explanations. Have questions been asked they have been met only with hostility, rudeness or simply no answers. This might be due to language and cultural differences but the picture you paint of how registration and evaluation is performed does not correspond with my own and many others experiences. Take this back to your friends at MAAK. They can also perform a "tea wash" by benchmarking their work with other international breeds that perform inspections and registrations in foreign countries.
If MAAK has the mission to register purebred Tekes they must make sure that they have the equipment and competence to do so in a non discriminating and efficient way.
If they could not, due to technical problems that we could do nothing about could not or would not register our horses the same year they were born, who wil pay the extra cost for late registration. We have not received any communication from MAAK at all. Our phone numbers, fax numbers and telephone numbers are easy accessible.
I do not feel comfortable to send paperwork to a non-official of MAAK I prefer to send my paperwork and money to the official registrar. But thank you for trying to help with your personal resources. As you stated earlier now MAAK has made it so much easier to register and I hope that their computers are up and running again so that we can register the official way.

15. Nadja10/13/2006 10:48:02
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

Tabitha.
No, you cannot independently estimate a horse that she has been registered with your estimations. You can ask in MAAK who can estimate a horse under their requirements in your country. Such too practises. Your estimations remain always "conditional", up to final estimation MAAK.

16. Nadja10/13/2006 11:03:44
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

Jessica.
tagat@bk.ru - e-mail of Abramova Nadja.
Watch that files were not big. And in one letter no more than 1,5 Mb. It is better to send several letters. Sometimes mail goes very hardly.
I wish good luck.
I shall once again be repeated, that I saw as Abramova and experts from France in common discussed horses on show. And witnesses it was much. Almost all breeders stood around and listened to estimations of the horses. In it there was nothing malicious or rough. And always spoke why 7,5, instead of 10, for example.

17. shael10/13/2006 11:32:17
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

This theem is much surprise to me. What means official estimation? Why you need this? What means estimation in the Studbook?
I look who is redactor of book. O'key T. Ryabova. By my oppinion this is estimation by version of T. Ryabova only. Official is fact that this horse is pure or not only. Perhaps I am best in the teke world, if my costomer have another oppinion, he can don't pay me my prise. If he needs protection of another expert, he can invite him, may be Rybova or somebody else. I don't need estimation. My oppinion is top.
For registration you need to send the description of foal and add results of parentage test, only. This rules describe in the statute of book.

18. Jessica10/13/2006 11:34:33

We'll resend the DNA-results performed by the Swedish lab in 2004 and see where we can go from there. You cannot though speak for how others, like me, have been treated by MAAK officials. That's pointless and does not change the facts about the behaviour. It is quite obvious that you have a good working relationship with MAAK and you seem to agree with most of their means and methods.
When you sold copies of the studbook in the west did you have the permit to do so by MAAK? Aren't they under copyright law?
Blanca,
For every time we have registered our Tekes with MAAK we have had to go through all kinds of inofficial channels and have had to ask friends for favours.
Therefore at this point, as in 2004, we do want to really make an effort to make an official registration directly with the MAAK officials. Especially as Nadya now told us here on the blog that it has become easy to register your Tekes directly with MAAK I prefer to do it the official way.
My communications with MAAK will be published on this blog so that all of our readers can follow, I mean really, keeping up a registry is not rocket science.
The lack of transparency within MAAK has been more and more obvious today when so many "news" about how-to-register and grading as well as local reps, forms to send in, your obligation to send your breeding plans in on annual basis have been reveiled.
I will have to take a moment to check if my passion is really strong enough for this soap opera!
But first, how do MAAK guarantee/verify (hopefully via a standard operational protocol for quality assurance) that the horse they have photos of match the DNA-results? In other words that every Teke inscribed into the studbook is a purebred?

19. Nadja10/13/2006 13:33:50
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

Jessica.
To whom have you asked about check of DNA? To me? I think this question you should set Abramova Nadja. She will explain you, as well as that they check. Sure that they do it also, as well as others all over the world. They did not invent a new bicycle.
I never sold copies of studbooks to the west. I have told, that I have made copies. But I did not sell them. I have not received from it any benefit. And you are right, yes, I received the sanction from MAAK. I took in MAAK originals and did copies. I do not have originals of the some studbook. To me have sent money for transport charges and manufacturing of copies and binding of books. No more it. Only once my friend from France has bought originals through me at other person. But it were calculations between two private people. Thing is not necessary for one also he sells. The thing is necessary for another also he buys. Here there is no infringement of copyrights. It to you will tell any lawyer.
About means and methods. It is easier to me to work, as I in Russia. If at me questions, it is enough to me to call and ask. Unfortunately, at you such opportunity is not present. It is a pity to me. I think, that MAAK should work being more accessible. They understand it. I hope, that soon they will more accessible, as well as they plan.

20. Hans-Jurg Buss10/13/2006 13:55:43

Stupid question: Why do you want to have your Tekes registered with MAAK? I never made any effort to register my foals out there. Nethertheless they all are DNA-tested pure bred Akhal Tekes. The breeders interst in registering may be economical at the end. May be his horses are worth more with such registry. This is an individual choice. However, me personally I do prefer a not registered Teke with an outstanding conformation and type to a registered one with a weak back and short legs.

As far as breeders are concerned: they are free to do what they want and they think is convenient for them.

But an organization as MAAK, whose goal is to promote and develop the breed, this organization should have all the interest to have registered all Akhal Tekes all over the world. It is a "Hohlschuld" not a "Bringschuld", as we say in German. I.e. not we breeders are in obligation, we can do what we want. For this reason MAAK should make the registration process as easy and transparent as possible. I think that I am one of the major breeders in Western Europe as with regard to quantity of horses - about the qualtity I do not make any judgement. I am convinced that there are better breeders. But I have never been contacted by any official of MAAK. There is just no interest, as there is no interest on my side.

But what if one day one of my not registered Akhal Teke should win an important international competition? Will MAAK then say : "No no that is not an Akhal Teke because he is not registered with us"???

21. Todd10/13/2006 14:48:43
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/

Hans-Jurg,
I think you popped the question of the decade! "Why", is a good question...
It would be one thing if the International Breeder's Association (MAAK) and the Stud book management (VNIIK) were different entities. One working to manage the stud book and one working FOR the international breeders. Today MAAK and VNIIK are the same people with the same roles. How do you pressure a system like this to make improvements? We cannot turn to MAAK to pressure VNIIK to simplify the registration process, make it more transparent, etc. Sad situation.

Todd

22. Darya10/13/2006 17:01:44
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I do not quite agree with the point of not registering, because if everyone starts to do so, there will be no way to tell, what is happening with the breed. Specially that we hear it is rare and edangered, someone needs to keep the records. How well they do their job is a different matter.

23. Dasha Cole10/13/2006 22:18:41
Homepage: http://www.akhalteke.homestead.com

Hello All!
Here is the bottom level questions I would like to receive the answers for.
1. Who is the final authority to grade the stock?
2. Who will be a final register of pure bred Akhal Tekes if there is disagreemnt with existing MAAK/VNIIK? How can we improve existing communication Russia-America? I am willing to translate if Russians would like to talk...

3. How to approve the stallions for breeding if noone will make it here our way in America in the next two years?

4. What are the specific breeding goals in Russia which can improve the breed usability in the West? We can not selll the horse of the fine ribs and narrow chests - it`s good for show but we need it for jumping, ropping, rodeo and dressage, not to talk about the eventing and endurance...
5. What are we looking in the breed? Do we want another Thorughbred or Quorter Horse? How can we combine the original type of Akhal Teke with the perseption of Western/Europian sport horse breeders?

Please help me out because I am here to learn. Common Breeders, give us a slack and let me know what you think.

Dasha

24. shael10/14/2006 02:58:25
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Постораюсь ответить по русски.

1. Who is the final authority to grade the stock?
Генеральная Племенная Книга находится во ВНИИКе в России. Зарегистрировать молодняк можно и в любой национальной Книге, имеющей Договор о сотрудничестве с ВНИИКом.

2. Who will be a final register of pure bred Akhal Tekes if there is disagreemnt with existing MAAK/VNIIK? How can we improve existing communication Russia-America? I am willing to translate if Russians would like to talk...
Смотрите ответ на первый вопрос. В конечном итоге вся информация по всему объёму породы должна собираться Генеральную Племенную Книгу.
Оптимизация связи это создание региональных Племенных Книг, работающих, как составные части Генеральной Книги.

3. How to approve the stallions for breeding if noone will make it here our way in America in the next two years?
Это полная ерунда и абсолютная чушь. Каждый заводчик сам принимает решение об использовании того или инного жеребца. Существует только один критерий - чистокровность!!!

4. What are the specific breeding goals in Russia which can improve the breed usability in the West? We can not selll the horse of the fine ribs and narrow chests - it`s good for show but we need it for jumping, ropping, rodeo and dressage, not to talk about the eventing and endurance...
Такого вопроса просто не существует. Нет такой Селекционной Программы, которой бы российские заводчики слепо подчинялись, как солдаты. Возможно это мечта ВНИИКа, но не действительность. Признаться не понимаю на каком основании Вы, Даша, делаете выводы о субтильности и узкогрудости лошадей российской селекции. Во первых, нет такого единообразия, каждый завод производит собственную селекцию на основании собственных вкусов и взглядов. Например средние промеры маточного состава нашего конного завода среди 29 кобыл 159 - 186,2 - 19,5. Если Вы делаете такие выводы из увиденных в Америке лошадей, то их отобрали и купили американцы на основании собственных взглядов и вкусов. А скорее всего, погнавшись за дешевизной.
Выводы можно делать тогда, когда Вы посетите ведущие конные заводы России и даже в этом случае Вы заметите разницу в стиле и качестве лошадей разных хозяйств.

5. What are we looking in the breed? Do we want another Thorughbred or Quorter Horse? How can we combine the original type of Akhal Teke with the perseption of Western/Europian sport horse breeders?
Существует древний селекционный принцип разведения ахалтекинских лошадей, рождённый в Парфии, Мидии, Бактрии, унаследованный туркменами и переданный нам Шамборантом. Звучит он так: "Был бы кровный конь, да первый приз". Полнее и сказать нечего. Любой селекционер найдёт здесь суть разведения ахалтекинской породы лошадей.
Нельзя приходить к породе с чуждыми ей, но близкими Вам принципами разведения. Получиться чушь. Надо приходить в породу и поддерживать существующие традиции, созданные тысячелетиями. При этом каждый стремиться к созданию собственного подчерка, собственного стиля.

25. Dasha Cole10/14/2006 09:33:15
Homepage: http://www.akhalteke.homestead.com

Translation

1.General Studbook is located in VNIIK in Russia. Young stock can be registered in any national studbook which has cooperation agreement with VNIIK.

2. Same as the answer for the first question. All information about the volume of the breed has to be compiled in general Studbook. In order to improve communication regional/sub stud books has to be created to operate as parts of General Studbook.
3.This is complete nonsense. Every breeder decides to use the one or another breeding stallion in his breeding program. There is one criterion for selection - pure bred!
4.There is no such a task in existence. There is no Breeding Program in place which has to be blindly followed by Russian breeders like soldiers. Possibly it’s the dream of VNIIK but not the reality. To admit the fact I don’t quite understand how you, Dasha can make statements about fine ribbed and narrow chested horses bred by Russian breeders. It`s not a one sided approach, every breeding farm is implementing it`s own breeding program based on it`s own taste and vision. For example, average measurements of 29 broodmares of our breeding plant are 159-186.2-19,5. If you make such a conclusions, based on the horses you have seen in America – those horses were chosen and bought by Americans based on their own taste and vision. More likely, low price was the factor. Conclusions can be made only after you visit leading breeding plants in Russia and even in this case you will see the difference in style and the quality of the horses bred by different plants.
5.There is an ancient breeding principle of breeding Akhal Teke horses. This principle originated in Parfia, Massagetae and Bacteria, inherited by Turkmenians and passed to us by Shamborat. It states the following: “Would of being a pure bred horse to win the race (prize)” (Russians help with better translation, I need to go feeding!). Can`t say more. Any breeder will find in this their goal for breeding Akhal Teke horses. You can not approach the breed with estranged for breed but acceptable to you breeding goals. Nonsense. It`s necessary to support existing traditions maintained by thousands of years. On top of that every breeder is determined to create his own signature and his own style of breeding.

26. shael10/14/2006 12:02:27
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

"Must be hotblood horse and first prize"

27. Darya10/14/2006 14:29:41
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Leonid, I made the translation for your earlier comment in other thread, just wanted to make sure you are happy with it.
Good answers, nice and straight forward, very good to read them.

28. Dasha10/14/2006 19:16:32
Homepage: http://www.akhalteke.homestead.com

Leonid,
Thank you for your comments on my qestions because it forms my vision about the breed and that`s the most important at this point for me. I have three absolutely different Akhal Teke horses and I would like to look at them from the stand point you described for me - different breeding studs, different styles but common historical cultural and traditional long term goals.

29. shael10/15/2006 01:00:39
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Darya, thank you very much!