Our Tekes are purebreds, some of them are registered by MAAK some of them are not. All of them can proove their parentage by DNA-testing.
If we decide to register our purebreds with MAAK, we will be forced to accept having our horses judged (I would offend the highly skilled and correct warmblood judges if I called it warmblood style) by a single person whose judgement can never be questioned and actually is in power to change the breed standard for every horse she judges! We will also be forced to join a system that makes you send in all info on our breeding plans, breedings etc.
This info can later on be used against you in order to punish you for not joining the right side of the system, in other words keep quiet about the fact that the "king is naked" (I hope you all read HC Anderssen).
I am really grateful to Nadya from Akhalt-service for all the pictures of their horses shown on their web site with the type and conformational points, going through these horses vs gradings give me proof beyond doubt that the present gradings are different from stud farm to stud farm not depending on the type and conformations corresponding to the breed standard but something else.

I have requested info on what I need to send in to MAAK in order to get our purebreds registered and will, as I promised show the communications in the KaraKum Diary.

I sent the following email October 13 to tagat@bk.ru:

"Dear Ms Abramova,
We have sent DNA-results for registration of pure bred Tekes via email three occassions in 2004. We have heard nothing from you understood today that you did receive the DNA-results.
Please verify that you have the DNA-results for the horses that we wish to register and also what other kind of documentation you need except zootechnical photos of each horse. Please also send information about the cost for registration and how to make the payment.
We would also appreciate to know the estimated time it will take before we can have the horses registrated."

I have to find out how the MAAK can match the photos and names of the horses I send in for registration with the DNA-results. If they cannot show me how it is done I will question the integrity of the MAAK registration of purebred Tekes.
I also think that MAAK shall not demand mandatory inspections of Tekes neither by the breeders to send nor from MAAK bureaucrats.

1. shael10/15/2006 11:17:25
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Jassica, you looks for this problem from left side, really. What means MAAK? Are you know? I don't know. What is connection between MAAK and registration? Between MAAK and breeders? Do you know? I don't know. Studbook is by rule of VNIIK. You must have all connections with this Institute, which have director, wich pays money to staffs. If institute dosn't answer, you can ask to Russian Academy of Sciences. I think this is correct way. You can protect your rights through Ambassy, lawyer and so on.
website of VNIIK http://www.ruhorses.ru/

2. shael10/15/2006 11:50:12
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Some addition. If VNIIK dosn't want to work with you, you can count that brand "akhalteke breed" is free.

3. Hans-Jurg Buss10/15/2006 16:38:51

I am really confused. I never interested much about MAAK and VNIIK. I explained in another thread that the offspring of my Tekes is not registered there. But of course I acknowledge that it would be in the interest of the breed that all pure bred Tekes are registered in a freely accessible registry. Accessible at no cost for everybody in the world interested in this breed or in a single horse, for whatever reason.

MAAK should be the association of breeders. And VNIIK is, when I correctly understand the posting of Leonid, a state organization. Paid by whom, the Russian state? As a breeder why should I have to rely on my Embassy in Russia if I have any problem with registry? That's absurd. That is not a state affaire, purely private.

4. shael10/16/2006 02:46:24
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

This is reality. I suddest to create new organization of breeders and create Studbook of this, like legatee of Studbook of VNIIK.

5. Blanca10/16/2006 05:40:49

Leonid, Hans Jurg, I agree with you in many ways.

However, we still need a central entity where our horses are registered. We even need the gradings and we should be able to ask for advice for our breeding plans, etc, as other associations do.

VNIIK is not the only horse organisation which depends on the State. Until very recently (2004?) the management of the official Stud books in Spain was in the hands of the Army. This was until a law transfered this fonctions to the private breeders associations.

Having said so, I still would like to have VNIIK/Maak management style improved and a bir decentralised. But for this we need strong national associations. And in Europe we don't have many...

Jessica, as for my papers, Nadja contacted Abramova concerning my problem, and she wrote me saying to "wait a bit for the reply". This was last Friday. Let's see...

6. Darya10/16/2006 06:17:11
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Blanca,
agree with you totally. We need stronger local associations, in my case, one seems to be pretty much absent. Than this associations need to try and work towards an international organisation, which would be central for them and would talk to MAAK/VNIIK concearning all the matters. I bet VNIIK/MAAK would find it much easier in this way too as they would only have to work with one strong organization, instead of trying to deal with this and that breeder from everywhere. At the moment everyone just seems to be stubborn with their own goals and views, and do not want to accept, that different, doesn't necessarily mean bad. We need organisations there that will accept the diversity within the breed and support people in achieving their goals, making sure they do not breed deffects that affect horses badly and so on. I consider that cruelty to animals and the fact that any pureblood horse can be bred does not excuse that.

There is no need to keep on to MAAK just because they are called International, doesn't mean they are. It more sounds like a left over from Soviet times when they used to call everything International, even though a lot of countries did not have a clue about those things. Plus there are plenty of nationalities within Russia, it is not only populated by people who consider themselves Russians. So calling it International is fare in a way. But on the whole MAAK/VNIIK is pretty much an internal organisation, and I am sure they have reasons why they can not deal with everything, as their resources are more than likely a bit stretched. So I suggest to work on making things easier for each other and have respect for each other, as when you only say bad things to people, they are more likely to turn away from you. It is not rocket science.

7. shael10/16/2006 07:18:02
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Darya, you bought two horses yesterday only and even not came to our society yet, and you can not know history of our international activity. At the beggining let try to create GB teke assotiation between two-three members.

There is question about trade mark only, which is property of VNIIK. Not russian breeders have to connect with VNIIK by this reason. But you need do it easier through your national authority to head (director) of Institute, then directly through Abramova, or Ryabova. In this case this conection goes not officialy, not through VNIIK (and payment too). And please, forget MAAK, he is nothing in real time. Realy to work with VNIIK. MAAK doesn't do registration.
Blanca, say me please, why this person, which wants to name himself breeder, breeds something, that doesn't know? Why he needs gradings, breeding plans? If you can not do, don't do it. At the beggining necessary to study. In any case, that's all privete breeder's bussines only.

8. shael10/16/2006 07:30:03
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

What means this: " I consider that cruelty to animals and the fact that any pureblood horse can be bred does not excuse that."

9. Blanca10/16/2006 08:23:58

Leonid, yuk, you really need to come here, and you will find PLENTY of breeders who, for instance, have never been to Russia (Moscow championship, Stavropol, etc) or who have never gone farther than seeing the ATs in their countries and still, they are breeding every year

I agree that every breeder should know what he/she wants to breed. But still, these breedings or products need to be evaluated, you like or not the results. Not only for the breeder, also as a kind of official guarrantee for the market. Also, as a way to learn for the newcomers (I consider myself one of them). To have a horse graded allows to show what are the most appreciated traits of the breed and prevents -or should- the sale of bad horses under the label of "exotic" or "rare individuals", etc. Last, bur not least, as a way to keep official records of lineages, breedings, etc.

The problem is to have a biaised judge; or too few people who can give gradings and who can't speak foreign languages, or who can't travel, or all the problems we are discussing here.

10. shael10/16/2006 08:47:20
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Blanca, in any bussiness we must go ahead to the top. I have not wish to look our falls. It is bussines of them. I am hate when hear ward exotic. Tekes are not exotic, thay are base of World horsebreeding. If somebody think another, I have not interest to conect.

11. Dasha Cole10/16/2006 08:52:50
Homepage: http://www.akhalteke.homestead.com

Leonid,
Your comments about young breeder Darya "you bought two horses yesterday" is unacceptable and not polite! There is no Akhal Teke community. That`s what I understand people are trying to build here. Without respect and understanding from one member to another it will not be possible.
We bought "our horses yesterday" but me may have more potential with the help of professional trainers to show our horses today.
There is no Akhal Teke community that`s why breed suffers because many can not overcome their personal issues and start training the horses for the serious shows. And I thought experienced breeder should just be happy so we are the young generation is still interested in Akhal Teke horses and should support our passion for it because we are spending our hard earned money on buying, maintaining and trying to show Akhal Tekes. Noone yet gave me a trained horse and said, go head and take it to the show. I have to back my own horses that`s how far away I am from it. But I still backed Jessica`s Paikhas and I will back Tito`s horses because people have to see Akhal Tekes here in Florida. I am backing the horses because I have no choice and I will not appriciate someone comments that I own horses for two days...

12. Jessica 10/16/2006 09:33:16

I think it is better to discuss openly suggestions for improvement, as long as we have an open discussion going on everything can only get better. In order to find better solutions we will have to define the past and the present. Define the problem and work towards solutions. The wider range of personalities and experiences the better. There are seniors and juniors and rookies in this forum, I base it on number of years "in service" with this breed. I think it is good that also the rookies are listened to as it is interesting to see how a rookie experience coming into this breed in the 21st century.
Dasha, no one will give you anything more than you ask for, there are trained Tekes for sale that can go directly into the show ring. When you bought Paikhas from us we suggested her as you wanted a young horse you could work with from scratch. As you mentioned that you were not that an experienced rider we selected for you a young mare with an easy going temperament that we had found exceptionally easy to work with, she was backed in Sweden as a two-year-old and lost I would say four months of training due to her exportation from Sweden and importation to the USA. It is great to know that you have decided to train and show your Tekes in Florida. You have chosen to buy a three- year- old that you by now has had in traning for 1.5 years. Training horses for the discipline you have chosen to show in, dressage, take many years and there are no short cuts. It's great to know that you work with a trainer and we have never denied you out support or help in any matters.
The two rescues you saved from the stud farm in Texas will need a lot of time to recover from years of starvation and abuse. Moira was backed by me in your place (this I call support), she was lame and emancipated at that time as she had recently arrived, I backed her as I has promised to do to check if she had been under rider before which she obviously had. I then recommended you to give her all the time she needed to recover. The seven-year-old halter broken stallion has lost 5 to 4 years of training and I can guess it will be quite a challenge to get him trained to show in dressage.
However, there are trained Tekes for most disciplines for sale so there is no need real for anyone to start of with green or rescued horses in this country. I do not agree with your "no one sold me" argumentation. What I do admire about you Dasha and think is almost unique is that you have decided to show and not to breed Tekes. Let me know when you will enter your first Teke in a show here in Florida and we will be there with the big supporter team.

13. shael10/16/2006 09:47:52
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Даша, я про Ивана, а Вы про Фому. Прочитайте последний пост Дарьи, который просто оскорбителен для россиян и для тех усилий, благодаря которым мы создавали МААК. В итоге, сегодня МААК не работает, но в том числе и благодаря нашим зарубежным коллегам, пребывающим в пассивности.
Даша, Вы свои деньги тратите для своей души или бизнеса и я не собираюсь их считать. Если бы ко мне пришёл Мастер уровня Филатова, то я, безусловно бы дал ему лошадь в работу. Приходите к нам и докажите, что Вы мастер такого уровня. Мы приветствуем любые усилия, направленные на продвижение текинцев.
Видимо я ни когда не смогу вежливо выслушивать менторский тон дилетантов. Разведение это конечно не космические технологии, но этому делу мы отдаём свою жизнь, а не только деньги. А если уж взялись за заводскую деятельность, то хотя бы изучите предмет на столько глубоко насколько это возможно. Таже Джессика провела не мало времени в России, да и начинала не с нуля в голове.
Шамборант как то рассказал анекдот:
"Художник устороил премьеру просмотра своей картины. Пригласил своих друзей, среди которых был сапожник. Картина была портретом во весь рост. Его друг-сапожник указал своему другу-художнику на ошибки в изображении сапог и художник взял кисть и тут же исправил недостатки. Но сапожник не успокоился и указал на ошибки в изображении лица на портрете. Здесь художник резко оборвал его словами: "Выше сапога не лезь"".
Хочешь быть заводчиком, то хотя бы оглядись вокруг, покушай этого хлеба-соли, заработай авторитет в обществе, а тогда мы послушаем как надо жить лучше.
Даша, не стоит обижаться, луше переведите на английский если не трудно.

14. Dasha Cole10/16/2006 11:45:25
Homepage: http://www.akhalteke.homestead.com

Jessica
Thank you for your comments. I have no complains as you know about Paikhas - I bought her unbroke. And I am very happy with her. She does have a thrown cicle but she will be bred this year as a recomendation of the vet. We will let you know shen she goes into her first show. Would love to have you!

Please let me know who has any seriousely trained AT horses for sale at this moment? I am not talking just broke.

For the breeding part we do have a breeding farm set up for the next season. We have Dolomit availabe for stud services as well as we are getting paperwork finalized for another MAAK approved stallion who has off spring on the ground. We will be offereing two stallions for the breeding season of 2007 here in Sarasota. Everyone welcome! We will breed to part breds as it seems so far most of the reservations arive from non-AT owners.

All the recomendations for breeding will be done by Tito Pontecorvo for pure bred horses. If anyone has a desire to find out what they horse will look like to avoid breeding mistakes I understand from Tito`s wife Natasha this information will be avilable soon.

As to Dolomit and Moira - they are both great horses demonstrating top class of breeding in Akhal Tekes. Dolomit is under the saddle at the trout, shows wonderfull temper.
Moira is under the saddle at the trout too. Both horses are sound working horses and doing great. Pictures of Dolomit and Moira will be on my blog soon under the saddle.

It was a drought in Texas this year and we have seen it since we were there. There is nothing you can do with 110F in the pastures and no rain for the grass.

Leonid
I would take your word on top class training. Maybe I can show something in a few years. My trainer who is a top class retired dressage master thinks that I have the potential. Wonderfull part is that we have our own farm, we are close to famous Siesta Key and Sarasota city where according to statistics every 6th household is a millionaire. We will live we will see.

Leonid I will not be able to translate the blog since I am leaving to run my advertising compaign in Teneriffe and South Africa tonight and will be back only next week by Friday. Maybe Darya or Maria can help?

Well, let`s stay freinds, do not abuse the experiece and the honour of old breeders but also keep educating the youngsters like us and hopefully we can move the breed forward during this century.

15. Dasha Cole10/16/2006 13:32:24
Homepage: http://www.akhalteke.homestead.com

If anyone interested to see Dolomit under the saddle his picture is published www.akhalteke.homestead.com. He is a wonderfull horse to work with.
I will have Moira pictures on the trout under the saddle soon.
If anyone interested to read about the trip to Texas it`s on my web blog on the same site.
Horses did have some weight loss when we got them but it was not as dramatic and they recovered very quickly.

16. Todd10/16/2006 15:40:47
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/

Dasha and Darya,

What is a MAAK approved stallion?

Leonid and Sasha,
Are your stallions approved by MAAK?
I know several of your stallions are recommended by MAAK....

Anyone,
What is the difference between a Licensed stallion, Approved stallion and a stallion recommended by MAAK?

17. Darya10/16/2006 15:53:33
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Leonid, I think I start to give up on you, learn the language properly and than read carefully. I have never said breeding tekes was not rocket science, i said being polite to people is not rocket science. But it is obviously for you. I admire greatly the work you have done with your horses, but the way you speak to people is beyond me. I understand you can not change, so would you please just avoid reading my comments, as a lot of them are not adressed to you anyways. I might be green with Tekes, but you are still yet to prove that MAAK is international, as I don't think anyone has seen the proof of that. Oh yes, they issue passports in English (passports that are useless in any EU country). Does that make them international? We have International Woman's Day that I can assure you no one outside Russia knows about. Yes, there is no GB association, and this is not my fault. I have only bought my horses yesterday, so I didn't have a chance yet to sort that out. You are not the one to give people chances though, so I close from here.

18. Hans-Jurg Buss10/16/2006 16:42:30

Darya, I prefer the straightforwardness of Leonid to many nothing saying polite statements. I do not know him personally and disagree with much he says, and agree with even more, but I recognize that he very often brings issues to their real point. And your phrase "... learn the language properly..." may be you better would not have written. Or what if I would invite you to make your comments in Russian or German, my mother language?

19. Jessica10/16/2006 17:50:44

Dasha, we are looking forward to seeing the progress of your Tekes! Just give us a ring when you are showing.

Did you ever investigate the marble stones for Paikhas?

I have nothing against the fact that you and others without hesitation use my blog for your personal marketing purposes as well as copy and paste from my blog to your web sites etc.
However, I cannot let you promote Tito Pontecorvo and his work on my blog - my living space, me and my kids are still healing from what we saw in California of the rescues from Texas. The stories of horror that the dead eyes, the bodies of these starved, deformed Tekes told me are beyond what I dreamed of I would have to see in a rich country as USA. Had I known the reality behind the upset communication I got the whole summer over the state in Texas I would never have brought my kids to see these horses, for me it was a rude awakening for my horse loving daughters a trauma.
I'm sorry but I have such strong passion for horses and their well being, that is a soft spot in my work with horses. I have decided to be open about what I think, and I can take the beating I get, horses never have the choice, they depend 100% on us people to protect them from evil. I take my first stand for the horses. Therefore people that do evil to horses do not belong on this blog.

20. maria10/16/2006 18:52:14

I am going to translate Leonid’s post (into *proper* English, if I may!) because I rather like the story by Shamborant. I don’t know if I necessarily agree with Leonid’s views about MAAK but some of his sentiments about the need to learn to walk before you run, are very familiar to me from my own background where as an inexperienced youngster you were expected to learn from authority, not challenge it ("authority" in the artistic, not the authoritarian, sense). <<<<<<<>>>

21. maria10/16/2006 19:18:19

Dasha, I am on to one thing and you get off to another. Do read the last post by Darya which is offensive towards Russians and towards the efforts we had made to create MAAK. In the end, MAAK does not work, but partly thanks to our colleagues abroad, who remain inactive. Dasha, I am not going to count the money you spend on yourself or your business. If a Master Rider of Filatov’s standing came to me, I would, without a shadow of doubt, offer him a horse to take into training. Come here and prove that you are a Master on such a level. We applaude all efforts to promote the Akhal-Teke. I admit, I will never be able to listen politely to the amateurs’ lecturing. No, horse-breeding isn’t rocket science but some of us give our lives to it, not just our money. If you have decided to breed, please take a minute to study the subject in as much depth as possible. Take Jessica, for example, who spent quite a bit of time in Russia, and she didn’t not start from scratch either. Shamborant once told a joke: “A painter organised a viewing for one of his paintings. He invited friends and amongst them was a cobbler. The painting was a full-length portrait. The painter’s friend-the-cobbler pointed out several errors to his friend-the-painter in the depiction of boots, at which point the painter took his brush and corrected the errors. But the cobbler was not content to leave it at that and began to point out the inaccuracies in the facial features. At this point, the painter stopped him abruptly, saying ”Do me a favour, don’t get above the boots, will you?”. If you want to be a breeder, look around first, live through hell and high-water, earn yourself some respect amongst the experts, and then we will hear what you’ve got to say about how it should be.

22. Dasha Cole10/16/2006 21:37:18
Homepage: http://www.akhalteke.homestead.com

Jessica,
If anything need to clear one thing has to be clear. Tito is ill and I understand that both of your breeding stallions Almaz and Osman came from Tito Pontecorvo. Paikhas is bred out of Almaz who again is Tito`s breeding stallion.
Instead of washing out the condition of the horses why couldn`t you come and help Tito and Natasha when it was obvous that they needed help with both of them not even driving the car... in April?

It`s so easy to talk about the condition of the horses who have to live throug the draught but where is Akhal Teke Lovers? Why noone showed up when was almost needed? We were herding the horses in 110C into the trailers - there were only two ladies from California me and Cesar...

I am not claiming everyone has to drop everything and go but it`s so easy to blaim unfortunate situation and do not recognise the work of his whole life - his horses. I understand Jessica that all of you mares are from Tito`s stallion praised Osman.

23. Darya10/17/2006 03:32:29
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Hans-Jurq Buss, straightforward can stay polite, I know it is possible. I am quite often blamed for being too straighforward, or "straight in the eye", but I do try to keep my talk polite as well. One of examples of me being straight forward is remark about the language, while I should really shut up and listen. But I do not like being misunderstood you see.

24. shael10/17/2006 04:15:56
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

For information. Osman was born in Daghestan Stud, and Almaz was born in Chagorta Stud. Almaz was sold to Jessica by falsh papers.
I suggest to stop to discuss Tito, becourse he can not answer.

25. Heather 10/17/2006 09:35:41

Maria,
Thank you for the translation of Leonid's post. One thing stuck out to me, that I thought was worth commenting on. Leonid's quote, "I admit, I will never be able to listen politely to the amateurs’ lecturing." Really, this is very fair. It is so easy within the context of a blog, to type furiously away when you react to something without thought of consequence or consideration of whom you are talking to. In a way it deprives us of perspective, because someone of Leonid's standing within the AT community may post, and then I might write just as much, when in fact I have passion for the breed, but mean nothing else to it. I am just a potential investor eager to learn about the Akhal-Teke "community."
To me this blog represents the opportunity to converse with and learn from people I might never have had the opportunity to meet. Right now my students are out on break enjoying a cool windy day in the cattle ranch capital of central Florida. How many other corners of the earth are represented here? It really is a great innovation.
My point is that everyone has been so eager to argue misunderstandings lately that it feels like we're forgetting to appreciate the opporunity to converse at all.

26. shael10/17/2006 10:07:29
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Heather, there is not correct tranclation. It must be so. "Видимо я ни когда не смогу вежливо выслушивать менторский тон дилетантов - I admit, I will never be able to listen politely mentor tone of diletants"

27. Darya10/17/2006 14:08:38

Well said, Heather, you are such a nice person. I would dread to think you growing one day into an expert, god knows what that will do to you. Sorry, I was going to shut up and listen, but I just can't help it.

28. Heather Mahoney10/17/2006 14:58:40

Okay, this is only somewhat related to the thread, but I have what to most of you will be a silly question. But as I tell my students - The only stupid question is the one you don't ask... if that were only true all the time.
How is the "line" determined? Does it follow stallion or mare? I know of other breeds like arabians, where you always give the Stallion live and Mare family. For instance Garayusup's lineage is Posman and Peren... which line is he considered?
Any explanation is much appreciated, and I hope you will all tolerate my ignorance on this.

29. shael10/17/2006 15:23:08
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Heather, only for you. Garayusup is by Posman line, like was his father, his grandfather and so on. But for real selectin this line structure of breed is not more important then other participients of pedigree.

30. shael10/17/2006 15:23:41
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Heather, only for you. Garayusup is by Posman line, like was his father, his grandfather and so on. But for real selectin this line structure of breed is not more important then other participients of pedigree.

31. maria10/18/2006 05:01:42

Леня! Вы не правы! Mentoring does not have the same connotation in English as it has in Russian. "Literal translation" is not the same as "Good translation"! Mentoring tends to have a positive connotation in English whereas your sentence in Russian uses it as a negative. That's why I chose to use "lecturing" which is often used in English to describe "unwanted, imposing advice". Diletant and Amateur have similar meaning but in English Amateur is used where Дилетант would be used in Russian, this is more to do with frequency of usage rather than meaning. I do sympathise that it must be a challenge for you to listen to the менторский тон дилетантов. Believe you me! - it is a big challenge for me - the only bi-lingual member of this blog - to read the so-called "English" generated by this international virtual gathering! Trust me, Lenia, I am not mis-translating your posts, much the contrary!

32. shael10/18/2006 05:16:29
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Don't warry, Masha.