The treeless saddle, a saddle made without the tree that is used in the English saddles and without the blades that are used in stock saddles. For many riders and horses the treeless saddle has been a last resort when no saddle never really fits or you have a horse that changes the body type a lot over time.
Many riders appreciate the treeless version and claims that the horses seem to perform better especially when it comes to activate their backs and or get a free shoulder movement. In the era of a more humane attitude towards the horse, we have seen and realised the many injuires an illfitted saddle can cause in the horse, the hollows behind the withers where the tree has been eating the trapezio (I think it is called) muscles out completely do of course not occur without pain.
It is important to check the back of your horse regularely, massage is a great way to get to know your horse and early detect muscle pain.

Bitless, is really nothing new, the Hackamore has been an often used alternative to horses that have been unhappy with bits. Today we are aware of the fact that horses actually do look different in their mouths and therefore experience the bit differently, this would come as no surprise. The Hackamore that used to be very sharp on the nose of the horse now come in many different versions.

Shoeless, well some horses do perform better without shoes, and some do not. The fact that a hoof will have to be balanced and trimmed according to the leg of the horse does not change wether you have shoes or not. Good and bad farriers will always cause lameness and pain in horses. The wear of the hoof and the need of grip should decide if you put on shoes or not, where I used to live it was impossible to ride shoeless for 6 months a year for example, I would never dream of putting my horse in a stable instead of riding, because someone told me that shoes are bad for horses.

However, every horse is an indivual and have their specific needs, and in the wrong hands treeless, bitless and shoeless can hurt and damage a horse very much. I have myself experimented with treeless (bareback) bitless and shoeless solutions for horses to make them perform better, I have been active since the 70's and nothing of the above is really new, and I am a little bit suspicious to trends or trendsetters that market their methods as good for everyone. That's not horsemanship. Good horsemanship is to study and learn your horse and optimise his performance and not to follow trends.

1. Darya11/29/2006 16:25:17
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I agree it is a case of finding what works best for your horse. It was quite interesting on the course I went how people were trying to ask what they should do in this or that case and quite often they were told that they got such options and they have to work out what is best for their horse. It is such a complicated and interesting process, and I am going through it now. It is quite overwhelming when I just bought my horses and have got a lot to learn about their characters and so on.

2. maria11/29/2006 19:04:04

Jessica, when you say you couldn't ride in Sweden for six months without shoes - is this because it is too slippery without shoes on frozen ground or snow? I do wonder because one of the big problems with having shoes on horses in England in the winter is that when they go through deep mud (here it rarely freezes), they pull the shoes off. And then people get into this vicious circle of having to shoe more often and there is not enough hoof to hold the nails. I totally agree about the indoctrination which tends to go with these trends. They sound like religious cults. And it can be very difficult to separate the sensible ideas from shameless propaganda. At the end of the day, experience is the best way to help one decide what's right for the horse and what isn't but gaining experience usually means making loads of mistakes first.

3. maria11/29/2006 19:10:57

The hollow areas behind the withers is my biggest headache with Mualim. The tree shape of my saddle is clearly wrong for him and, in fact, it got a bit better since I added loads of padding. But then, of course, you feel like you are perched on a pile of cushions. No good for dressage!

4. Tabitha11/30/2006 06:34:41

It indeed depends on the horse. and your means off keeping him and his feet in the right circumstances.
A shoeless foot needs to be exposed to many different circumstances regularly (soft soil, hard soil, rocks, etc). If you can't provide that then you must adjust accordingly for the good of your horse. In some cases this might mean irons or shoes (they have real shoes for horses now too if your horse needs them for work but doesn't need them for the meadow).

and there are horses that just hate treeless saddles. So then just give them a tree saddle. They need to carry you, and they know best what they like or don't like .
Agan for example is VERY clear when it comes to what kind of saddle he likes or doesn't like . And then it's up to me to decide wheather(?) to listen to him or just be stubborn because experts say the saddle fits well and he's just being difficult.
A horse alway has a reason to behave bad. It's up to us to listen to them and find out what they mean to tell us. We took them into captivity so now it's our responsability to give them the most pleasant/comfortable live possible for them.

I've been looking for a proffesional equine massage person over here. I read a lot of good things about it. I am curious what Agan will think of it .

5. Tabitha11/30/2006 06:34:41

It indeed depends on the horse. and your means off keeping him and his feet in the right circumstances.
<br>A shoeless foot needs to be exposed to many different circumstances regularly (soft soil, hard soil, rocks, etc). If you can't provide that then you must adjust accordingly for the good of your horse. In some cases this might mean irons or shoes (they have real shoes for horses now too if your horse needs them for work but doesn't need them for the meadow).
<br>
<br>and there are horses that just hate treeless saddles. So then just give them a tree saddle. They need to carry you, and they know best what they like or don't like .
<br>Agan for example is VERY clear when it comes to what kind of saddle he likes or doesn't like . And then it's up to me to decide wheather(?) to listen to him or just be stubborn because experts say the saddle fits well and he's just being difficult.
<br>A horse alway has a reason to behave bad. It's up to us to listen to them and find out what they mean to tell us. We took them into captivity so now it's our responsability to give them the most pleasant/comfortable live possible for them.
<br>
<br>I've been looking for a proffesional equine massage person over here. I read a lot of good things about it. I am curious what Agan will think of it .

6. Jessica 11/30/2006 10:29:25

Maria, it might not be the tree that is pressuring the trapezio, it might be the saddle and its position. Considering the fact that Mualim has long and broad shoulders he probably pushes the saddle back.
The shock absorbing pads (there are zillions on the market) might be a solution but you have to make sure that they are not making the fit to narrow over the back. If you have an allround saddle you might also considering using a breastplate to keep the saddle in place.
Another good old thing is the felt pad, very difficult to find today but they are really good as they are shock absorbing and they also shape themselves after the contour of the horse. I cannot understand why they disappeared from the market.

7. Jessica11/30/2006 10:45:45

Tabitha, there is a balance between giving your horse a good life and to use him for your own purposes might it be leasure riding, sports or ego boosting. If the horse could choose he would leave you for a herd grazing on the large open unfenced steppes.
There is nothing natural in what we do to horses, and sometimes we have to push them to do things that hurts and they would rather not do. To train an athlete is about pushing to the limits and it will get painful and stressing for the horse. Being aware of this is important and today we are so much more humane and realise that is is actually easier to have the horse work for us than try to break it down. That is why the horses today perform so much better than 40 years ago.
Sometimes it is difficult to know if a horse is not responding the way we want him to due to pain or just by testing the limits. This is the most difficult balance in making the horse user friendly and perform well. Also if we have to push him even if we know it is painful we must make sure it is not a destructive pain.
Look at how the herd interacts and how the leader will not tolerate even a lame horse to disrespect him/her as the leader.

8. Darya11/30/2006 11:15:08
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Ah, good old felt pads, cowboys at my grandperents' village use them all the time. I should bring one home with me next time I go visit them.
You are so right that if it was up to the horses, they would not have us funny monkeys around alltogether, apart from maybe that bit where we help them to keep their stomachs full.

9. Tabitha12/01/2006 03:32:21

Hi Jessica

That's exactly what I meant to say. We took them out of the wild to use them.
The least we can do is take care they have a live as good as possible (movement, company, as much meadow time as possible, good caring, etc.) without causing stress due to too unnatural circumstances (they're in unnatural circumstances anyway, so it's up to us not to make it worse). Make them happy about being with us instead off in the wild.

10. Tabitha12/01/2006 04:15:13

This is a saddle I hear lots of good about. As far as I heard everyone who tries it out falls in love with it.
And they have a great thing to measure your horse's back.
http://www.flair.uk.com/

It's not treeless though. But I believe it's quite expensive:- .

11. Jessica12/01/2006 07:50:16

Darya, Do you have any pictures of the felt pads you know from Kazakhstan? It would be interesting to check them out.

12. Jessica 12/01/2006 08:14:58

Tabitha, I just wanted to point out, we took them from the wild, modified them into Equus Caballus. The feral horses we can see today are domesticated horses, Equus Caballus, that have been let out to fend by themselves in what is left of nature in areas such as France (Camargue), USA (Mustangs) and even Gotland (Gotland Russ). Some English pony breeds such as New Forest also have semi wild herds to make sure that the breed will maintain the ability to fend for itself by spending a winter in the forest. However in most cases the horses are taken care of so that weak and ill animals will be taken care of or put down and extra food will be given if needed.
Eventhough the domesticated horse has a much smaller brain(makes them easier to work with but not so well suited for life in the wild) than wild equivalents such as zebras they still have strong traits from their forefathers, the most important traits to consider is what you mention, the need for plenty of forage to eat from 14 to 16 hours per day as well as space enough to be in motion for a bigger part of the day.
The restriction of motion in horses causes loss of muscle mass and bone mass. Lack of forage and motion/social life cause severe physical and mental problems.

13. maria12/01/2006 09:33:21

Three master-saddler's visits and 18 saddles later we have finally settled on http://www.frankbaines-saddlery.com/product_display.asp?ProdId=64 It has a tree but lacks an inner flap - maybe they are saving on leather these days....

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15. Darya12/02/2006 12:08:29
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Jessica,
Pitifully I do not have the pictures. I will certainly bring one home next time I'm visiting my beloved Altai mountains (where I was born). I can bring a couple more if anyone else wants them.

16. Jessica 12/02/2006 15:42:31

Darya, please bring one for me! Next time I come to England I will pick it up or you can bring one to the show next year.
I think we had Turkmen carpets boarded with Maria for, was it a few years? but eventually they ended up on our floors. If the felt pads are good they might be the next must have for riders! The tradition of using use of felt pads, saddles and rinding boots must be as old as the Teke breed.

17. Darya12/02/2006 16:40:18
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Jessica, I will bring a couple for you. I remembered them so clearly as soon as you mentioned all the qualities and it is true, they are shock absorbant, take shape of the horse and very long lasting. I did not realise they were that hard to get hold of, otherwise I would have gotten some earlier. They are widely used in rural Russia (villagers and cowboys), and felt is actually a part of the saddle tree on the saddles they use as well (used as a cutioning on the panels that rest on the horse). I haven't got any good pictures to show the saddles they use, but next time I go I will take some pics of saddles and share them, for the sake of interest and knowledge.

18. Darya12/03/2006 04:23:21
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Jessica, since Altai could have been part of the Teke history and Todd and you like photography, I want to share this link to some beautiful photos of Altai: http://photo.altailand.ru/ Mountains there always remind me some massive sleeping creatures...

19. Jessica12/03/2006 09:30:52

Dairya, the Altai saddle project is so interesting, I made a new thread and added a picture of an older saddle found in Altai, next time you go home you will really have an interesting mission. I am very interested in everything about saddle and bitting you can find so yes, bring the camera and take a lot of photos.

20. Jessica12/03/2006 09:33:01

Maria, congratulations to your new saddle, hopefully now you will have nice rides on your heavenly steed! I used a Frank Baines for many years on my first Teke both of us enjoyed that saddle.

21. maria12/03/2006 16:03:53

Thank you, Jessica. I think it fits Mualim the best I can find. I must admit, I find the seat quite hard :- so I might try using a seat pad. The saddle fitter instructed me to ride with only a thin cloth for six sessions, to let the flocking settle. But I only did three and today put a sheep skin underneath it. It was the same with my old saddle - Mualim seems to really like a lot of warm, soft padding under the saddle. It is very noticeable, he moves quite different. Now this is probably jumping to ureasonable conclusions - but is this because Teke have such fine-skin and is this why the Turkmen used so much padding? Or am I being naive?

22. maria12/03/2006 16:08:06

Darya and I went to a fair on Saturday and saw Heather Moffett's treeless saddles made of memory foam and Italian leather. I am trying to persuade myself that they are utterly horrible and that I did not make a mistake buying a traditional one with a tree. It's already got some Devon mud on it and I don't think the saddler will take it back! But I can confirm that I rode up a very steep hill and down a very steep hill and it didn't slip either way, nor did it slip when Mualim greeted the neighbours' mares by giving them a wave with his front hoof!

23. Darya12/03/2006 17:10:05
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Maria,
I'm glad you like your saddle, I wasn't very much convinced with that treeless ones we've seen either. Seems like Greek cutioning that Jessica described in the other thread. Is your back ok?

24. Sara12/08/2006 22:00:07

To anyone who might have a good answer for me:
I am a team roper/ barrel racer and just yesterday purchased a 4 yr old PMU (DEFINTELY has some percheron in him) gelding. I am not worried about his feet, but his back and his mouth. He has almost NO wither and is EXTREMELY wide (almost like a couch). I only own saddles with semi-quarter horse bars. The trainer who has him now rides him in a saddle with full QH bars but would a treeless be better in this case? Also, he lifts his head and opens his mouth at the trot and canter even though hes ridden in a plain O ring snaffle. He is definitely trying to get away from it, though I am VERY careful to give him plenty of slack. When I jingle it, he temporarily fixes his headset. Any ideas on exercises that can encourage him to flex better? I check this website periodically and am INSANELY interested in the Teke breed as my next endurance prospect. Thanks to anyone who might have some ideas for me.