as we have been discussing training a little bit lately I thought I move it up here together with my reply.
Hallo,

I am an hobby rider who is privileged to train an young Akhal-teke mare. She's 5 years old, living in a herd on mountain till 8 months ago. First time ridden this summer, and she has started her training under rider a month ago.

I don't own her, I was recommended to her owner as a rider by a friend (who breeds Akhal-tekes for more than 10 years, I have used to ride an Akhal-teke mare that belongs to him), since the owner needed someone to help him. I'm training the mare on picture and the owner another one.

We have limited manage (around 10 m in diameter), and we ride them there 2 times per week for 20-30 minutes, and on weekend we hack them out - walking and trotting, 30-60 minutes.

Generally we are pleased with them, but not every time. For example, sometimes on a hack they are relaxed, willing to move, with long rhythmic strides. But sometimes they are stubborn and unwilling to move, almost as a mule..

On days when we don't ride them, 2 times per week they are lunged, and 2 days in a week they don't do any training.

We have plans to use them for trekking, and perhaps endurance and dressage.

Do you have some suggestions on our training routine, how to handle stubbornness (when they are unwilling to move, usually on a hack), and what would be right amount of hay and oats (I have got recommendations that 3 kg of oats should be enough)?

Best Regards,
Zoran Rabljenović

Zoran,
Welcome to the blog and I guess we can add Croatia to the Teke world map now,. Great! I want to know everything about your Tekes, pedigree, breeder, age etc.
Ok now to your questions. I want to say first of all that it is quite a challenge to train an unbroken and from what I understand not so much handled 5 year old horse. The mind and body are so much stronger in a 5 year old than a 2.5 - 3 year old. The natural curiosity to new things in exchanged for suspicion and the bonds to the herd are stronger.
It looks like you are working on a decent schedule for the horses, it is good to lunge in the arena to strengthen the horse and prepare it for more demanding work under rider, as well as reinforce the obedience to voice commands, the horse must stop, walk, trot and canter on command.
I think three times a week for the first six months under rider is enough, you have older horses but they still have to reshape their muscles, bones and ligaments to carry the extra weight.
I would use the time in the arena under rider, as it is a little bit small, to reinforce the aids for forward and stop, and make sure that the horse understand and obey the aids. And to be clear in my aids. It is important to always ride the aids through, when you give the aids for stop the horse must stop, when you give the aids for go forward the horse must always go forward.
Make sure that your aids are clear and that the horse really understand what you want it to do.
When you take your young or green horses out the first times it can happen that the horse "freeze" they might see something or simply ponder about things that are new to them, if that is the reason to your stops, you will want the horse to take its time but still obey your commands.
If you feel that the horse simply it trying to stop, turn around and go home, you must make him work forward, this is non negotiable. Never let the horse take the command in such situations. If you have checked your horse properly everytime before you ride, for soreness in legs, back and other musles and is sure that the horse is not overworked, you must be very clear in the situations when the horse refuse to go forward, you cannot loose here because this will only strengthen the horses mind for next fight.
If the horses are nervous or insecure when you take them out you might consider taking an older horse with you that can show the new horses that it is ok to be out hacking away from the herd and the stables. This also creates a better drive in the younger horses to go forward by themselves.
I hope this helps, let me know how you progress!
About feeding it is very difficult to give advice without knowing the quality of and amount of hay or grass the horses are given and also how much time they spend in pastures etc.
Do you feel that your horses lack energy and do not build muscles you probably should look into adding other sources of protein to than oats to the feeding ratio.

1. Zoran12/01/2006 04:49:25

Jessica, thank you for your answer. It shows me that I'm thinking in good direction. I just had an training in manage yesterday, and it was great. Till yesterday I was focused during the training sessions in manage in relaxing the mares and little bit of trotting, on both sides to work on stiff and holow side. During the last hack I have concluded that she's not responsive enough on leg aids, in example she doesn't speed up the walk if I ask (if I ask for trot, she responds well, she makes transition from walk to trot). So I decided to focus on a lot of transitions halt-walk-trot-walk-halt in manage, to make her more responsive, and to make sure she obeys to my leg aids. It worked nice, yesterday she was engaged, relaxed, worked good on both directions, comfortable trot with long strides. Something happened what I didn't plan so soon. I wanted to cool her down before we finish our training session, and I releasd the reins (plannning to ride with long reins, with almost no contact), and then she streched her head and neck to seek for bit. I pulled the reins back, and she responded by raising her head and neck with keeping the same contact with the bit. I have again let her go long and low, to relax her little bit. She accepted contact with the bit properly. In walk I always give her a lot of rein, trying not to destroy her natural way of walking, with long rithmic strides. For gentle contact I have asked so far only in trot.

I asked the owner yesterday about the pedigree and the lines, but he wasn't able to answer me. I know that he made some DNA analysis before buying them, so I expected him to be informed, but it is not the case. I will ask a friend who breeds Tekes for 10 year and who is competent, and I think he could know it for those two mares too... The owner of these two bought them on recommendation of a man who owns a Teke stallion and needed some mares to start breeding, whitout previous knowladge or expirience on Tekes..

2. Jessica12/01/2006 08:50:36

Zoran, it seems like the owner of the Tekes you are training has found a really good rider in you. If the horse responds the way she did when you gave her more rein then you are really working in the right direction. Keep up the good job! How do you like the mare? it seems like she is being quite a nice girl after all!
Now of course I am more curious abut the pedigree and origin of the Tekes, let me know if there is anything I can do to help!

3. Zoran12/01/2006 10:01:04

Jessica, thank you for the compliment. I'm trying to give my best. I have experience of riding (not regularly, sometimes more often, sometime very rare) 33 different horses during 8 years. 3 of them were stallions, other geldings and mares. Few of them were very green, but this is first time that I'm practically training a horse on my own, without assistance of a rider and horse with more experience. I have good theoretical background (have read many books), but limited experience of riding completely schooled horse. What gave me a worry with Teke is change of the mood. After 2 good sessions easily comes bad one, and I could not figure out why, but I hope it will disappear with time, since we train together for a month and a half only... The mare is little bit bossy, dominant, and that is the reason why the owner gave me that particular one, and he took the other one, but I knew that usually horses with "their head" are usually better. I think she's talented for almost anything, dressage, endurance (I think she's brave), perhaps jumping too. She's good natured, talented, I want to keep her that way.... Regarding her bravery, once on a "good" hack we met some people burning some grass, with flame and smoke, I thought it won't be possible to pass near that obstacle, but we did it almost without any worry. Police horses would have problems with something like this.. Other day we met a small child with a stick in hand few meters away, we spent few minutes to make them pass near that child... It's funny...

As soon as I get the information on pedigree, I'll post it here... It will take some time, since the person who could know it lives in other town..

Best Regards,
Zoran

4. maria12/03/2006 16:16:42

Zoran, your mare sounds great! Don't you think it's more interesting when a horse is a bit unpredictable and can have "moods"? It keeps us more awake and attuned to the horse, and makes us better riders in the end!

5. Zoran12/07/2006 08:52:44

When we talk about "moods"...

On Saturday we hacked them out for an hour and half. Mostly walking and little bit trotting. When we came to the point where we usualy turn to go back (never on the same spot, little bit different every time), both mares tried to turn back by its own will. I was successful to keep her going in direction I want, but the rider on second mare (owner) probably wouldn't without my mare as a leading horse. When we came back close to the stables, we proceeded little bit longer other way, and on owner's insisting we have tried to pass near two hazards, one is an yard with few loud dogs and a lot of trash and that kind of spooky thing. We succeded thanks to my mare, but with bucking, little bit usage of whip and strong leg aids. I have decided that I can't aford to myself battles I can't win. If it was my choice, I would present hazards I know they are affraid of when they are fresh and in good mood, not when we should finish our ride. We passed two similar hazards on the same way. We succed to make them to go where we want. The whip I used decisively and energetic, but not with to much force. She would resist, resist, and then suddenly go forward.

On Thuesday I came at night (5 PM), and tried to work her in manage. The owner has already finished his work with other mare, so we were alone in taht small manage. We made few circles in walk, and then I started with transitions as last time, walk-trot-walk-halt, etc. I have used leg and whip as usually. After a short time she started kicking with her hind legs every time I aply leg aid or whip. At the beggining (a month and a half ago) I have used very gentle leg aids, then I made conclusion that she needs little bit stronger, and it was ok till now. Signs with her tail and kicking shows me that she's complaining about my leg aids, but I can't figure out why suddenly, I ride always on the same way.. At the moment she catched the with with her tail (long schooling whip, till now it worked better that short one), and it was stuck somewhere in her behind part, I couldn't pull it out, and I was affraid she's going to panic. She made few bucks (little ones, she's not able or she doesn't know yet how to make a big one...), and I succeded to pull it out. I put that whip away, and took the short one, but without using it. On every leg aid she reacted with kicking. Kicking with her hind legs is her usual way to complain about something, it occured at the beggining during the saddleing and tightening the girth, etc., a don't think she's trying to buck me off, but shows her resistence against leg and whip aids. She kicked I think 20-40 times that day durig the ride. I could forget about troting any more that day.. I walked her little bit around (she was responsive to rein aids), and dismounted after 35 minutes of work (to long I think). She was tensed, moved without rithm, croocked, unwilliungly. Totaly different that during training few day ago I have described before... Today I'm going to ride her again, I have decided to stop practicing transitions, to focus on little usage of legs and keep them quiet, and to shorten the training on 10 minutes if needed, to finish when she's still in the mood for the work... We'll see how she's going to behave...

The owner decided to save the other mare from riding (she's pregnet, 7 months - I think it's to early to stop riding her, but the owner make decisions). I'll suggest the owner if he wants to save the othe rmare from work, we can lead them both (saddled) around, to allow them to graze near (but near enough) hazards they dislike. On that way I could avoid separating the mares during the hacking, at least till my mare is not listening the aids completely, and to train the other one to accomodate her to different sort of hazards...

6. Zoran12/07/2006 09:03:19

With other horses it would be easier to say how we are progressing. With this one at moment I have almost a school horse, and at the other moment totaly different.

I would agree that "it keeps us more awake and attuned to the horse, and makes us better riders in the end!", as a good rider should always listen to his/her horse and adjust himself to the situation, but it's bad for confidence and creates suspicions "am I doing right?", "am I going to ruin this pour horse", etc. Sometimes it looks like I'm going to win dressage competitions with her, and simetimes totaly oposite...

It seams that I should spend a lot of time on bonding with the mare...

7. Darya12/07/2006 09:04:03
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

May be she is in season/pregnant and that's the reason she has got discomfort with leg pressure? Mares do have their moods, my mare can be like that.

8. Zoran12/07/2006 09:42:10

She could be in season... I have tought on this too, later, when I was thinking on that training session, but I haven't noticed signes when I was there (most probably because I was concentrated on training, and I'm usualy not in position to watch her tail and vagina movements...) She's not pregnent, at least the owner thinks so...

I have sense, why would she so suddenly become sensitive on leg aids (I used to ride a few years ago an Akhal-teke mare that was very sensitive on legs, I needed to keep them completely away from her body for first 15 minutes, and later, during the ride she would accept the gentle contact with the legs...)

9. Darya12/07/2006 09:54:32
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I wish you luck with figuring that out. Tekes definitely know how to keep you busy. I definitely agree it is bad for the confidence, but than you will have a good ride/training and you will feel good again.

10. Zoran12/07/2006 09:55:32

At the beggining, when I started to work with her, I was using very gentle aids. She was responsive, but moved little bit lazy... We had a moments in manage (never out on a hack) when I couldn't move her. Once came to a visit a man from whom I took some lessons some two years ago (professional stuntman), and rode her for five minutes. He used strong leg aids, and a whip, "to show her who is the boss", and it worked. She moved nice, with impulsion, listening to him. It is not the way I thought that an Akhal-teke should/could be ridden. I don't ride her that way, but I figure out that she need little bit more descisive and energetic aids from my side and it worked mostly well. (I don't want to make wrong impression, I don't use force with horses. I ride them for pleasure, not for living, I'm not an sadist, and if I can't handle the horse without force, I don't handle that horse at all..)

I thought I have tuned myself to her till last training...

11. Jessica 12/07/2006 19:26:22

Zoran, being the horseman yu are, you now take a step back and think what has happened in your training. Let me add a few thoughts on the matter.
You have been riding your horse for a while now and at some point the learning curve evens out, at some point in the education of the young horse the horse will need time to process and adjust to the education and is therefore not open to new things. Maybe a week of rest from riding would be good?
A horse will at some points, more when it is young and "green" try to test the limits. Who is the boss? Like teenagers and kids they will test until they reach the limit. Is this what you are going through now?
The horse has now been under saddle for a while, if the horse has soundness problems from bad farriery, saddles, overtraining or simply bad conformation you will probably see it now.
You will have to, before you work with the horse again try to identify the problem.
You cannot work with her and the same time feel unsure of what is her problem, am I hurting her etc, she will sense you being uncertain and use the situation. Mares are normally tough and they need their limits to be very clear.
My recommendation is to go back at step in your training.
Check back, feet and legs for soreness. Trot her on a firm surface before you ride and make sure she is ok in legs and feet.
Make sure that you are clear in your aids. Pressure from legs always forward, pull the reins always stop. Make sure that you always ride your aids through, always. Do not make a big deal out of it, be very quick with punishment and rewards, rewards are more important than punishment. If you have to whip your horse repeatedly I think it is something else than disobediance and you will have to go back several steps in training.
If you feel that your mare is giving you the big who is the boss test you must be firm but fair to her. In order to be able to do this you must yourself be sure that you are clear in signals, and your horse is sound.
Before you can really teach and train her, she must have the rythm and be loose and free in her gaits, if she is tense she will learn nothing.

12. Zoran12/08/2006 02:34:41

"you now take a step back and think what has happened in your training.", "at some point the learning curve evens out, at some point in the education of the young horse the horse will need time to process and adjust to the education and is therefore not open to new things." -> I rode her yesterday. She wasn't kicking as much as on Thuesday, but she still did it.. She usualy kick when we make transition from walk to trot. In trot she tried to kick few time, but she wasn't able to do it in movement. She was responsive to leg aids in order to keep her troting... So, she's complaining about troting. On training before that occured we almost walked all the time, with very little and gentle troting... Otherwise I would make conclusion that I have done to much troting, and perhaps she has sore back... But since we didn't trot significat, it is less likely to be a problem. I tried to simplify training, without many transitions, turn on forehand (what I started to teach her last time), just little bit troting and walking in relaxed manner, until she's back in good mood.

Regarding testing the limits, she's dominant type of a horse, but I would expect disobedience than in walk too.

Regarding the aids, I was focused yesterday on my legs and hands, to check if they are realy quiet, to use them as little as possible. I used the whip two or three times, but not strong, when she kicked and refused to trot on.

I haven't found any phisical problems regarding her back and legs, but my concern is if weaknes of her back could be the problem, since I'm heavy (95 kg) -> "The horse has now been under saddle for a while, if the horse has soundness problems from bad farriery, saddles, overtraining or simply bad conformation you will probably see it now.". But I realy try to save her until she gets stronger. Two times of working in manage for half an hour, and once per week hacking out for an hour, mostly walk with little bit trot is realy little.

Basicly, she's still good and nice mare. This kicking is not the big issue during the ride, but shows that she's resisting, and I want to clear the problem in the root, when it is occuring, not to wait that it escalates to something bigger...

Regarding rewards, I reward her with sugar when she accepts something she's not happy about, for example after thightening the girth, and after I dismount (she very quiet during mounting and dismounting).. During the training I reward her with gentle touching her neck and mane, etc.

She's very soft in the mouth, and I ride with almost loose reins. Sometimes I take better contact, to get her used to, but I'm trying to keep her mouth soft on the bit. She responds on very gentle rein movements.

Regarding the question on who is the boss, on last hack before the problem occured, we had disagreements regarding passing strange objects, but I won every time, punishing her only when she refused my aids by bucking or stepping back, and in that very moment. So I would expect her to be little bit more respoective, aftre a ride like that.. I would expect disobedience if she won some bottles, but it didn't happen...

A week of rest from riding could be good.. I should ride her tomorow, but the weather forcast is bad for the weekend, and probably we won't be able to ride. So, most likly I'll ride her on Thuesday, which could mean 4 days of rest for her...

The owner tried to ride her also yesterday, and she was also kicking few times.

13. Jessica12/08/2006 10:59:53

Zoran, the kicking in the trot mystery still will have to be solved at this point.
Maybe it is time to try to isolate the situations that leads to the kicking, to me it seems like you have no leadership or clarity in aids problems as well as you understand that the horse must be in rythm or mentally relaxed to learn and build muscles.
What I would do is to go back to lungeing without saddle and preferreably bit as well will she kick in the trot? If not add bit, then saddle, then rider, then leg and hand aids etc. To me it sounds like something is bothering her the question is what is bothering her.
What do you think about that?
Without generalising to much I would say that the strong Teke mares I have worked with, have been very tough, as though as horses bred for speed like TB's and trotters sometimes might be.
The stallions though have been easier once they have learned that they, like men, will not impress me with macho attitude.
Without being to much generalising it can have to do with the fact that mares traditionally were kept in a herd and bred but seldom ridden until the Russians took over the breeding program in the 1920's when the Turkmens where told to race their mares as well.
The Tekes have not been tested and selected that much for rideability in a modern sense, which also make some individuals more than a handful for many riders to work with.
Today many riders are spoiled with horses that have been selected for their ability to work good with people. I think originally the Tekes were selected for this so important trait, but that we have lost it in the breed. We have no tests and therefore no statistics for rideability in the breed. There are breeders even in the west, which is surprising, that promotes their Tekes as sport horses, without having a clue about the rideability of their breeding stock. And that neglect to educate the horses according to their age and therefore sell Tekes as sport horses without knowing if they are even rideable.
In my world this selection with blind folded eyes. And the wrong approach for this breed.

14. Zoran12/08/2006 16:30:13

Jessica, in order to check leadership or clarity in my aids I have put different rider (the owner) on her, and her response was kicking also...

The idea to trot her without rider and isolating the situations sounds like good one I haven't thought on till now. If she's going to kick again on next training session, I'll dismount and check it...

I have came to conclusion what could be the source of problems, and I would like to hear your opinion...

In these around 20 training sessions in a month and half, 2 major problems have occured. First one on 6. training session. It was planned to be a training in manage, and she refused to move. We have solved that with a lot of effort. The training session before that one (the fifth) was hacking out which lasted to long in my opinion, around 2 hours. First four trainings lasted between 30 minutes till an hour, and after that long one they probably had sore mouscules. We asked them to much, and that put them off the training (the mare I ride, she's more character)... I was aware of that, talked to the owner (he planned the route), and we both agreed that we should keep it shorter... The training (hacking out) before the training this kicking has occured) we rode for an hour and half, but what could put her off is that we presented (not by my will, it was stressful for me too )three hazards she's affraid of, and I think it could be to much for her confidence, no matter to the fact we passed those objects ("hazards"). Her confidence should be built gradualy, it can not be done in one training session. One of the major dogma in art of riding is "never ask the horse to much". I always thought on this as not to ask jumer to jump to high, higher that it is capable, or to much collection etc. But if you ask the horse to pass three hazards in a raw, one after another one, it could be to much. It took me a day to rest myself after that ride, and she probably felt in similar way... Why kicking? This is her way to show that she's not happy about something. She had that kicking during thge saddling, the tightening the girth, once I tied her up outside of the stable, while other mare was in the stable, she was also kicking. What do you think on this theory?

She's the braver one, and she's mostly the leading horse. We try to change them in leading position, but the other one the owner couldn't make her pass near any hazard, without this one in front of her. The mare I ride has stronger character and she's the brave one, with a lot of potential....

I agree with your opinion on testing the rideability of Tekes...

15. Zoran12/09/2006 13:41:41

We rode today after all, but in manage, since the weather wasn't promissing...

We have changed her saddle, and it seams that it helped.. She was nice and responsive. She kicked two times (it weren't realy kicks, just little bit) after half an hour of riding, so I think to put some additional padding below the saddle, and assume more forward position, to release her back as much as possible.

We rode her in an old Portuguise (traditional in Portugal) saddle also, and she wasn't kicking...

I haven't checked saddling before, since the owner had some proffesional advices (from proffesional riders) regarding equipment, and has good saddles (higher middle class equipment). I know some techniques how to check if saddle is fit, and I'll aply it.

The solution to every problem is always simple..

16. Darya12/09/2006 17:10:52
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Glad that your problem is sorted. It is nice to have a horse that will tell you if something is wrong, rather than you finding out later through big problems or injuries when it is too late.

17. Jessica12/11/2006 15:38:40

Zoran, it looks like you could identify the problem to the saddle.
Let's hope that your mare is happier now so that you can continue her education. I would make sure to check her back for soreness for a couple of weeks to make sure that she didn't get any muscular or other problems from the saddle.