let's continue this discussion under this thread.

1. Hans-Jurg Buss01/10/2007 19:19:35

That is the first issue there I must admit: hey, I just do not know what is right! I refer to my posting in the other thread and to the posting of Maria. Besides the question of practical control of approval mechanism, why should it theoretically be wrong to try to eliminate "untypey" horses or for me more important horses with genetical defects from studbook? I would concentrate on genetical defects, not type or measurments or conformation. Can you in TB or Arab studbook really inscribe horses with severe defects, just because you have made offsprings, which probably have the same defects? Is that good for the breed?

2. shael01/11/2007 03:40:32
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

There are defects or not, must be only one criteria - purity. Determination of defects is another story.

3. Robert van Driel01/11/2007 04:09:58

Hello everyone,

My name is Robert van Driel from The Netherlands and I am the proud owner of an Akhal Teke Mare since November 2005.

To add to this interesting discussion; I think that all pure bred horses should be registered, but maybe not all of them should be recorded as approved breeding stock. In the Netherlands we have seen in several dog breeds that pure bred dogs are allowed as breeding stock because they have the right papers although they suffer from hereditary illnesses like hip problems or even eyes falling out of the socket. In the Dutch Welsh A pony breed, value is being placed upon small ears and large round eyes, but not at all on sports ability. In the Welsh circles it is even said that if a pony is not good enough for the show, it is by definition a sports pony…..

In the very successful Dutch KWPN sport horse breed however, stallions are only approved as breeding stallions after a long period of use by the breeding organization, which tests the horses on character and sports abilities. Employees of this organization tests and grades the horses.

Because of the small size of the population of Akhal Tekes and because they are not really concentrated in one area, it probably is not a practical solution. I would however appreciate it if a list of Akhal Teke stallions would be available not only mentioning their grading, but also with other characteristics of the breed like smooth gaits, character and colour.

Small breeders would certainly benefit from this. Naturally, all Akhal Teke stallions should be made available by allowing artificial insemination within the breed.

4. Tabitha01/11/2007 04:29:55

Jessica, Don't know if this belongs in this subject or in your "warmblood"topic.

MAAK is classifying horses on their parentage also (that helped in getting my horse a low classification too). But doesn't this limit the gene pool of the breed?
Because ofcourse.. if you want your horse to be registered as Elite, which probably most breeders want then you should breed your horse out of 2 Elite parents and voil■: an Elite Akhal-Teke. No one is going to want to breed to a stallion below Elite grading anymore. And how much stallions do have Elite grading?

Now based on the other points the grading can result as lower, but having a high parentage grade certainly pushes up the classification.

If your horse's parents weren't graded by MAAK or are class I (or were class I in the old situation but have now been placed in a lower class due to the more strict grading rules) your horses automatically gets low points for this (as did mine).

But isn't it so that out of purebred moderate healthy Tekes can come purebred outstanding healthy Tekes with outstanding talents?


As long as your AT is purebred, typical, has no defects and does have sports ability (imho wished desires in an AT) then why throw it out of the stud book based on height and parentage?

5. maria01/11/2007 06:14:35

Hello Robert, Welcome to the blog! I have a connection with the Netherlands and it is good to know there are new AT owners there. Where did you get your mare? Tell us more about her. It's very interesting to hear your thoughts on KWPN. Some members of this blog have been considering for a while what the best approach would be for European AT as far as registration, approval for breeding etc is concerned. I will try to put some thoughts down later - got to do some work now

6. Jessica01/11/2007 08:27:46

Hans-Jürg, when you have an international umbrella organisation that approves national studbooks like the TB and the Arabians the international umbrella organisation will understand and respect the national laws that regulates horse breeding. This means that if purity is the criteria, any pure horse that produces will be inscribed into the studbook, but in some countries a purebred animal will not be allowed to be used for breeding due to for example defects.
A TB that by its registration is pure and thereby allowed to race in Sweden for example, might have such defects that it will not be allowed to breed in Sweden, the horse can, however breed in other countries for the studbook. The national rules will not challenge purity in breeds with closed studbooks merely the right to produce. For the AT breed in Sweden purebred animals that are elite or class I might not be allowed to breed due to defects. So when you look for a stallion for example you will always have to be aware of your national rules that will always overrule the studbook rules in the sense of the right to breed. As a buyer it might also be of interest to look at the national rules in order to look for a place where strict rules for producing sound horses are applied, this will give you an indication of the quality of the horses produced under the national rules.
For warmbloods that mostly approve each others studbooks a KWNP stallion not approved in Holland due to for example OCD findings can look for approval with another studbook and produce for that studbook and so to say "change breed". A very good producer of warmbloods can also be approved by several other studbooks. The TB and the Arabian studbooks are also approved by the warmblood studbooks but not the AT studbook.

7. Jessica01/11/2007 13:04:55

Robert, you brought up some interesting dilemmas for breeds with closed studbooks that were founded originally to conserve and improve a type that has been evolved due to a specified usage and environment. The question is how do we conserve the type but still make sure that the breed we preserve is attractive to the market?

How much changes or wide type range do we allow within the breed to make sure that the breed is improving within the frame of what characterize the breed?

Purity is the only studbook criteria for the Arabian and the TB, but purity alone is not the reason to why those breeds are some of the biggest and most popular breeds in the world today.
It is interesting though that one of them is known to be the fastest horse in the world and the other is known to be the most beautiful horse in the world.

8. Jessica01/11/2007 13:28:05

Tabitha, I think the pedigree grading is very complex to understand and interpret, as the gradings are dynamic and subject to change at any time the pedigree gradings should be equally subject to change. The fact that there are no differences made in the classification system between estimated breeding value and breeding value as well as no once-in-a-lifetime classifications make it more or less floating. If you come from a culture where classifications are made once for EBV and later continoulsy but with a system of presenting the values clear what is the EBV (constant) and BV (changing).
Example: EBV classification for stallions is B or AB. BV classifications are kassated, C, A or Elite.
If the grading system limits the genepool or not I would say depends on the frames of what is accepted within a breed.
The grading system is used to indicate what individuals should be used according to the breed standard. If the criteria for elite gradings would be narrow the effect would be lack of genetic diversity. Within our breed we work with stallion lines that are supposed to represent different traits and thereby represent breeds within the breed, the differences accepted and approved within the lines would improve the genetic diversity.

9. Hans-Jurg Buss01/11/2007 14:12:38

Jessica, to bring my question to the point: In TB and Arab "umbrella" general studbook pure horses with genetical defects will be inscribed in the general studbook as long as that is not prevented by a national regulation. In that case however, a horse may be inscribed in the studbook of another country and thus be accepted in the umbrella general studbook. Is that correct representation of actual situation?

10. Jessica01/12/2007 09:35:07

Hans-J■rg, there is no general studbook for these breeds, there are national studbooks under umbrella organisations that approve national registries and studbooks that conform with the rules. But yes, a horse that has a genetical defect that would not be approved in one country could be approved in another countries' studbook for the same breed. WAHO is the umbrella organisation for Arabians and for now I cannot remember the name of the umbrella for the TB.
Note also that different countries list different defects as genetical.

11. Robert van Driel01/13/2007 08:23:53

Hello Jessica,


First of all, I think that a horse sound be sound of mind and body. If not, then don’t breed with it even though if it is pure bred and the foals will be registered in the studbook automatically.

The Akhal Teke breed caught my attention because of a picture of the stallion Kambar with the beautiful shape and incredible colour. My own mare has the specific Akhal Teke way of moving and is very comfortable to ride. She also has this desire to please. (I must also add that I fell of her back several times and will put her in training again, but this is more due to my clumsiness)

So I think that the Akhal Teke breed has some attractive characterizations; the colour, the comfortable gait and the willingness to please. These are more or less unique to the breed and strangely enough do not appear in the structure of grading individual horses. I read that Tabitha’s horse did not even have to trot before the judges. I don’t think that this is a mistake of the judges, but it just is not part of the grading system.

I think that when it comes to “marketing” the Akhal Teke we may consider presenting an all-round performance horse with exotic colours, smooth gaits and the desire to please.

I am not very familiar yet with the Akhal Teke world, but sometimes it appears to me that too much emphasis is laid on type and grading.

12. Darya01/13/2007 09:30:07
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Hello Robert,
You made an excellent point about some of the most important traits not being considered while the grading is taking place. I don't think there is enough attention being paid to the temperament and the character of the horse, as Jessica has already pointed out before. I think that is why a lot of experienced people here encourage newcomers to look at the horse first, and may be consider gradings last, depending on what one wants to do with the horse.
Myself for example still pretty unaware of what gradings my stallion was awarded. I know he is what I was looking for and here he is in my stable. I've only recently requested for his gradings just for the record, because, as you have pointed out, a lot of people are interested in those.
What do you plan on doing with your mare?
Nice to have you on the blog,
Darya

13. Petra01/14/2007 04:01:07
Homepage: http://www.akhal.cz

I think the only criteria for Tekes should be purity.
Other things - it is the responsibility of every breeder. If someone wants to breed pink Tekes with green spots and crooked legs, let him. I wouldn■t be afraid of it. The major and best population is in the hands of experienced breeders in Russia and I am convinced that they wouldn■t breed such animals.
With defects - who will judge which defects is hereditary or not, serious or not serious? And you all know that many defects could be influenced e.g. by bad feeding during mare■s pregnancy or bad training or exercise management, especially young horses.
Here in Czech Republic some time ago born TB colt with crooked and shortened foreleg. Everybody told to shot him. Well, some years later he became triple winner of our famous steeplechase Velka Pardubicka and owners wanted to put him for breeding. And once more there were voices that the crooked leg could be hereditary. But they tried him and he sired horse who came 2nd in Velka Pardubicka and he was maternal sire of another legend Peruan (triple times winner of VP and 2nd in Sporting Index Steeplechase in CHeltenham). None of descendants of this horse has any problem with legs. Another story with Fakir Sulu. If we can believe to IV. Studbook, there is written, that his offspring has often weakned constitution, with mares inbred on Boinou his offspring has defects like both blind eyes, missing forelegs, parrot mouth, crooked legs, etc. But, in the hands of Shamborant, he sired Gelishikli and Fakirpelvan.
So no restrictions from Mother stud books or some organisations, but responsibility of every breeder. And support of the breeders by Studbook or some organisation like MAAK which means easy and transparent registrating process (no other Delegatkas). Breeders will get actual information, they will have possibility to learn from experts about the breed, ... I think this will help more to increase the quality of the breed if people know better what to breed and how. Specially here in Europe and U.S. there is often good will but not enough knowledge.
And my wish - introducing flat racing in Europe and US, which tests physical and mental constitution and bravery of the horse.
And last - no insemination and embryotransfer.

14. shael01/14/2007 08:55:41
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Petra, you are my sister!!!

15. Hans-Jurg Buss01/14/2007 09:05:53

Petra
"..it is the responisbility of every breeder.." that is exactly the point.

Without any rules everybody can make what he wants. That is why societies in general always have set up certain rules and laws which try to prevent inidviduals from doing just what they want. The problem with genetical defects is that they must not necessarily be evident in the immediate offspring of a horse but that they are carried forward in the genes for generations and may become suddenly manifest to the detriment of a breeder which had no idea that a certain horse within the pedigree of his stallion/broodmare had that genetical defect. If he is serious, he will not breed anymore with that broodmare/stallion. If not he will and then somebody else later will gather in the result. I tell you frankly that two of my foals have genetical defects. The stallion I gelded and the filly will surely not be bred by myself. But with complete lack of transparency it is very difficult to even trace back whether that comes from the sire or the broodmare. So what to do as a serious breeder: do not use both anymore for breeding?

16. Hans-Jurg Buss01/14/2007 09:20:58

To add: as I stated in my first posting in this thread for me I just do not what is the right answer.

And I agree with the posting of Petra (by the way Petra: I already was twice at the race track of Pardubice together with my son for the European Young Riders Eventing Championships. Incredible race track for steeple chase! One must have seen that). But it relates mostly to the past. Nowadays, with a stabilized gene pool of Tekes may be emphasis should or could be placed differently.

17. shael01/14/2007 09:26:56
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Hans-Jurg, this is difference between partbred and purebred breeding. There is only one criteria in the pure breeds - purity. If you need reglaments, look at partbred breeds. In the breeding of purity breeders must have only one aim - exelence. And this breeders have right for risk. In this breeding average level is not attractive. High level we must find at races, rings and equestrian sport. And only breeder must decide the using of concrete horse in the breeding.

18. Robert van Driel01/14/2007 10:19:32

Hello Petra,

The discussion on approving breeding animals within the Akhal Teke breed is probably purely theoretical as I agree with you that the major population of the breed is in the hands of experienced and responsible breeders. Moreover, the origin of the Akhal Teke was shaped by the people of Turkmenistan that did not even have a studbook or strict breeding rules.
However, I agree with Todd when he said in his Bek Nazar Blog; “A womb does not make a mare a broodmare, testicles don't make a stallion a sire!”

As to the artificial insemination. My opinion, as a novice in the Akhal Teke world, allowing it would significantly broaden the gene pool in countries where there are not many Akhal Teke stallions. Suppose I would like to have my mare covered by a stallion from the Czech Republic. Wouldn’t it make sense to collect the seed and send it by a standard expedition company in a cooling box to The Netherlands? If you would allow me to have my mare covered by Mingam and being opposed to insemination, I would have to drive to Humpolec in the Czech Republic, which is 989.5 km away from the place where I live in The Netherlands. With resting periods included for both me and the horse the whole trip including return would take 2 to 3 days.
I just fail to see the value of this.

19. shael01/14/2007 10:57:22
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Robert van Driel, I suppose Petra is more interesting to sell you the son of Mingam than a cooling box of him. If you are not to invest this breed, look your local freazians.

20. Robert van Driel01/14/2007 11:36:28

Hello Shael,

I agree to your idea. It would be a good solution. But it does not seem to be very realistic to buy a stallion if you only have one mare.

Besides, it is much nicer to be able to choose a different stallion each year. And given the practical problem of distance, artificial insemination is a good alternative.

21. Petra01/14/2007 12:31:38
Homepage: http://www.akhal.cz

Hello Robert,
to insemination - it is the question of approach. I think that it has no place with purebred breeding. And look to Russia - why do you think, Leonid sends his mares thousands kilometres from his stud to Stavropol farm and why Mr. Klimuk sends his mares to Shakhid to Dagestan? And both of them has excellent stallions in their yards.

22. Hans-Jurg Buss01/14/2007 13:50:43

Leonid, okay, but then what about the rules of MAAK, of which the Russian AT association is part of? They have introduced grading as criteria, which is even more "subjective" than question of genetical defects. But I know your answer: forget about MAAK. And I would agree.

23. shael01/14/2007 14:20:49
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Robert van Driel, try to buy one real extra and every western breeder will come to you.

24. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/14/2007 23:25:24
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

I am going to buy a good stud from you Leonid!!

25. shael01/15/2007 03:06:37
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Wellcome!!!

26. Jessica 01/15/2007 09:18:59

Here is my suggestion on how we can have it all in this breed;

PURITY shall be the only criteria for registration AND reproduction for this breed.

The techniques for approving PURITY shall be decided by a group appointed and approved by breeders, state-of-the-art techniques shall be used, total transparency shall be assured. This is a key issue.

The LEGEND of the breed shall be maintained and marketed by a group selected and approved by the breeders. This might involve the funding and keeping track of any new research on the unique traits of the breed as well as the publication of new and old research that maintains the support the legend of the breed.

NO gradings or points or other information than year, place of birth, breeder, pedigree and offspring shall be allowed to be published in the studbook that will ONLY maintain the register and studbook with a high level of service to breeders and owners. Annual statistics must be published in media that can be accessed by as many as possible and to be open to the public. The statistics shall be published in at least one international language. The breeders shall appoint a group of auditors of the work with the keeping of the register.

The breeders of Tekes that will want to quality test their Tekes for typicalness shall work together to arrange public breed shows for purpose of quality assessment and to promote the typical traits and usages for Tekes. These shows are optional for all Tekes. Results will not be published with other bodies than the organisation that arranges the show. This activity will also results in the foundation of a group of judges that will be selected on their performance as suitable for the job. Breeders, judges and organisations that create the shows will together work out a standard of excellence for the breed that can be used to educate the public and the breeders, train new judges as well as being used in the marketing of the breed.

The breeders of Tekes that will want to quality test their Tekes for sport horse abilities for the Olympic disciplines can work out to participate in such tests with the various sport horse studbooks that have an expertise knowledge and experience to perform such tests. Results of those tests will be published by the sport horse association. This agreement is already worked out in Sweden and also from beginning this year in the USA with one sport horse association.

Sport results for Tekes that perform will be published by the organisation that arranges the sport shows.
Optimally there will be a global database created for owners to add their sport results with reference to the results published by the organisation that arranged the show.

Artificial reproductional techniques, ART, today the need for education and understanding among breeders world wide is more important than reproductional techniques.
Any decision on any of the different techniques should preceded by a thorough investigation performed by a group appointed and approved by the breeders.

27. Jessica01/15/2007 09:29:50

I have to add SOUNDNESS, stallion owners that want to publish their stallions as free from what many breed associations today consider heritable genetical defects are free to do so by participating in official quality tests for sport horses or by showing vet certficates for soundness.
As few breed organisations scan mares for genetical defects, as they do not have as much impact on the population as stallions, it is and has been the mare owners responsability to make the breeding decision. The future will tell what breeders select for soundness and not. Hopefully the breeders that repeatedly produce unsound animals will disappear from the market.

28. Hans-Jurg Buss01/15/2007 10:39:02

Jessica
Congratulations! Your proposal pretty much summarizes up and integrates all the issues we have been discussing here in different threads the last weeks. Apart from may be details I would agree completely.

29. maria01/16/2007 05:10:55

Jessica, this is a really excellent effort to pull together the many strains of thought into something that looks like a proposal that would be acceptable to most owners and breeders. It's great to see a blueprint as a result of all the blogging!

30. Petra01/16/2007 08:18:04
Homepage: http://www.akhal.cz

Great Jessica,
only small note - no ART, but really art. Means no articial techniques and making "affordable" foals in large amount like on manufacture track, but purebred breeding (better word maybe THOROUGH bred breeding). WIth its excellence.
Because what would you prefer, "handmade" products or serial ones which are at every home?

31. Heather01/16/2007 11:58:58

Jessica,
Excellent suggestions. I think everyone can appreciate a thoughtful, intelligent and eloquent perspective on such a controversial series of issues. Believe me, it can be daunting to interested Akhal-Teke outsiders like myself.

On AI:
I have just a few questions/statements on the AI debate, which I'm certain will be ongoing. Petra, I can appreciate your metaphor to hand-made items vs. serial ones. Marketed in that way live-cover foals seem almost superior in "quality" to AI produced progeny. But here is my question to Leonid and Petra. What scientific foundation is there to question the legitimacy of AI in regards to purity or even art?? This is not embryo transfer, as we discussed before, where Leonid questions the influences of plasma transfer, although from a scientific perspective this does not influence the DNA of the foal, but only immunities which will be passed via the plasma of the mother. I understand the fear of "over-production," as Petra eloquently pointed out, but this is always inhibited monetarily, as well as by a limited book for a given stallion. Does not the stallion owner have some say in to whom they sell and ship semen?? In this way you still retain control of your "art" but have only more materials from which to choose. Or do you feel that there are not mares outside of Russia worth considering for your breeding purposes?

Food for thought and my curiousity.

Hope you enjoyed the long Martin Luther King holiday weekend, to all the US based bloggers!

Lastly, to Todd - I forgot to tell you Happy Hogmanay!!! A little belated. I should have send you and Jessica a black bun pudding. Alba go braugh agus bliain mhath!

Heather

32. shael01/16/2007 12:21:18
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Heather, this is not scientific problem, this is problem of philosophy, then market and philisophy again. I wrote this in articles on my site.

33. Heather01/16/2007 13:21:31

Leonid,
Is that article available in English? I read several of your articles a while back and enjoyed them, but some weren't translated. My Russian is less than stellar, and BabelFish's Russian is even worse! Not really, but at any rate, I could not follow the Russian articles. Please give me the name of the article in which this is discussed and if it's in English I will be happy to read your opinions there.
Thanks!
Heather

34. shael01/16/2007 13:41:43
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

http://www.shael-teke.com/web/shael.nsf/Articles/4BB42B0C3E7B10F985257215006D4637
http://www.shael-teke.com/web/shael.nsf/Articles/F0D05500AFFE732A85257215006E6F11

35. Heather01/16/2007 15:37:29

Leonid and Alexander,
You have my admiration for well written and weell thought out articles that hit the point and devliver your point of view in a concise and persuasive manner. Here are my questions. How does AI lead to the dramatic narrowing of the gene pool if the stallion is bred on a limited book? You do not have to flood the market with semen from one horse if you choose to limit how many times fresh or frozen semen will be made available to outside mares each season. For instance, I cannot speak for Jessica and Todd, but assume that there was a Russian stallion that you and they both agreed might be a wonderful match for the Osman daughters... Would allowing them to import semen suddenly mean that you must make it available to anyone or everyone that requests it? If I understand correctly, the stallion owner can be as selective as the mare owner, no? These are just hypothetical questions, of course. I am not a breeder, nor am I likely to ever be, but I appreciate your answers and views on these interesting questions.
Heather

36. Jessica01/16/2007 15:51:28

Thank you all for the positive comments to the summary of a suggestion for a common platform to work from to create a better future for this breed. These suggestion had not been able to come up with without everyones participation in this Teke ThinkTank we have created here.

I think at this point those of us who want to join the revolution and try to create a good future for this breed will have to make up our minds on to what extent we are prepared to compromise in order to create a modern, open, democratic organisation for this breed.

It is very difficult to merge different horse cultures, but if we really want I am sure that many of us have the strong drive to create something fantastic.

37. Jessica01/16/2007 16:12:43

The ART issue can be and shall be thoroughly discussed. There are several approaches population genetics, market value, breeders economy, breed development and the maintenance of the legend.

One suggestion is to benchmark the arguments for and against with the two breeds that most often are used in the discussions, the TB and the Arabian breed. How does the population genetics, market value, breeder's economy, breed development and the maintenance of the legend been affected by the Yes and No to ART.

How is the Teke breed being affected by the unregulated use of ART?

38. Jessica01/16/2007 16:53:11

Petra, I cannot say that I would see the use of AI as a tool for massproduction. AI is far to expensive for someone who wants to massproduce. If in the word massproduction is to produce the most to the lowest cost.
Buying a stallion if you have more than one mare is almost always cheaper than using AI. Many Teke stallions are cheap.
I have seen Teke mass production and there was nor AI, neither selection involved, there was the semi wild stallion let loose in the herd of mares and see what you get next year. That's natural, that's cheap. Is it handmade?
I think we must make a difference between the selection and the production. The selectionist (with the goal to improve) and the producer (with the goal to meet the massmarket).
I think it is a bigger chance that you see the selectionist use AI than the producer.
We will have always have both in the Teke breed. The best way in my opinion to support the selectionists - the artists- in this breed is to arrange breed shows. Or maybe better call them art exhibitions.

39. Maria01/16/2007 17:06:10

I didn't realise until recently that Arabian studbooks are OK with AI. A few months ago, a couple of endurance riders came to see Mualim and went very enthusiastic about him. But when I saw them at Xmas, they were preparing to AI their 17-year-old mare with the semen of a dead Arab stallion. The mare is a fairly big-time winner, so what does it tell us? That they know better than to choose an unproven AT stallion for their valuable mare Jessica, you expressed surprised at the time, so now you and I can both see, they are not amateurs after all! sorry to go off the topic...

40. Hans-Jurg Buss01/16/2007 17:43:22

The question of whether AI should be accepted in Teke breed or not and if yes to what degree (from fresh semen over frozen semen to embryo transfer up to - horrible - cloning) can not be answered by anybody in an "objective" way. It has philosophical, marketing, financial and genetical aspects about those one can discuss with no end. On this issue one must be prepared to compromise and accept others opinions. But of course for the breed there must be a generally accepted rule, whatever it is.

41. Darya01/17/2007 05:22:48
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Jessica,
Good point that AI is expensive. Especially frozen. I've looked up out of curiosity on the pricing to get the frozen semen collected from a stallion and I can assure you that it is pretty possible to buy another Teke stallion for that price. I doubt I can sell a foal for that much at this point in UK.

42. Robert van Driel01/17/2007 07:37:58

Hello Jessica,

You were very right when you started this discussion, by saying that it was a really interesting discussion. Spot on!

I support your idea of a global database. I have heard that you operated a database years ago. I have not seen this but I do know of the existence of the following database;

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/santana50

If you activate this you will see the pedigree of my Akhal Teke mare. Some photo’s are attached and it is possible – if you pay a fee – to generate all kind of reports for example on inbreeding. Wouldn’t it be nice if MAAK – or any other organization – had such an online system whereby the Studbooks that are now prepared once every 5 years or so can than be produced by pressing “ENTER”? I agree with Jessica’s thoughts to publish sports results in such a database.

Because of the articles that Leonid showed us I now realize that there is more than just one argument against Artificial Insemination. However as I have experienced myself and as some others have already pointed out, Artificial Insemination is very expensive. The costs prohibits a large scale use of the reproduction technique. Using AI will probably lead to the increased use of some stallions, but the impact on the whole breed will probably be not very significant.

But I must admit that too me as a very small scale breeder the discussion is very interesting but very academic.

43. Heather01/17/2007 09:39:09

Discussions like these are why I enjoy coming back to the blog again and again.
Like Robert said, Leonid's articles present an interesting perspective that promote the philosophical and cultural views on breeding, and make a reasonable argument for the intricate involvement of the breeder int he selection, breeding and raising of Akhal-Tekes. However, like Jessica pointed out, live cover does not always make a horse "handmade", nor does it prevent massproduction, as in the case of the heated debates we recently had over a particular breeder that would also be called an artist, but is actually one of the worst massproducers I've "dealt" with (via his sickly horses).

So where does this leave AI? Like we've said, AI is very cost prohibitive, and does not really run the risk of flooding the market. Also, no one has answered on offering semen to a limited book of mares... I know this is done with some Arab stallions. Is this not reasonable for AT's as well? If I'm mistaken somewhere, DO let me know, as again - I'm not a breeder. Also, if the organisation proposed by Jessica decided to accept AI, it would not require Russian breeders to automatically make their stallion available for semen collection, would it? Nor do they have the obligation to purchase or admire a horse produced through AI. But as Leonid is fond of saying, "just look at the horse." That is enough to determine if the outcome is art or mediocrity.

From what I've read so far I cannot find that there is a strong enough argument against AI - or indication that it could cause substantial harm to the market - to say it should be outlawed by a fledgling organisation. Of course, there is lots of debate to continue before that decision takes place, and will undoubtedly be between more important people than myself!

Cheers,
Heather

44. Robert van Driel01/17/2007 09:41:00

This pedigree database is so easily adjustable as, at least, one of you noticed that the parents of Santana changes just about every minute.

So let's add to the proposal that an official organization should lock the recored once it is determined that the data is correct....

45. Jessica01/17/2007 09:55:26

Robert, according to the link to the studbook database your mare is not a Teke. This is to illustrate the weakness with a studbook database that can be edited by anyone. I apologise for editing your horse I just wanted to give an example to why such databases are really not reliable.
Todd designed a studbook database in Lotus Notes in 1997 and has himself entered registered purebred Teke since then, except for a few from the 10th studbook that are being entered continously. This database was offered as an online version for free use during some years.
We had to close the online studbook from public use for several reasons, Todd originally built it for our own use in studying the breed. Todd has over the years added info such as known soundness issues etc that we find usable for our own breeding program. Todd has not yet added the algorithm for counting inbreeding. Breeding purebreds means that you really have to know your pedigrees!
The small scale breeders, like me and Todd, shall and must have a saying within the breed. How many Teke breeders register more than 20 purebred foals annually outside Russia?
I would guess that the western population of Tekes is to 95% being bred and maintained by small scale breeders. Maybe that to is the reason to the lack of interest from MAAK/VNIIK.
Another reason for breeders to unite.

46. Hans-Jurg Buss01/17/2007 10:02:29

Maria, according to my knowledege each national studbook for Arabian Horses establishes by itself whether for this particualr studbook AI and/or Embryo Transfer is allowed or not. In some countries it is allowed, in others not. That reflects the different "philosophical" and "financial" approach to this issue in each country.

47. Heather01/17/2007 10:51:04

Jessica,
I did not know that about the Arabian stud book, but it is helpful within the context of our discussion. Is this something you think might be applicable to AT's??

48. Petra01/17/2007 12:21:14
Homepage: http://www.akhal.cz

Hello Jessica,
I agree that selection should be the first thing which is took into consideration. And I know that there are many breeders, unfortunately also here in Czech Republic, where selection is made by stallions escaping from their paddocks or who are left semi-wild in the herd of mares.
I am just afraid that in not far future there could be situation that when you come to studfarms to choose your dream stallions, there will be none. Just spermbank. And daughters and grandaughters of Pampa, Azgul, Pudok Khan, Oprava, Opera, ..... will have several foals each year from embryotransfer. It is just question of time, when ART will be cheaper (e.g. here in Czech Republic one dose of frozen sperm exportable around EU costs around 25 euros, succesful embryotransfer around 1500 euros). And as the generation period is quite long with horses, it could be late to cope with consequences of ART retro-actively. And as the future is made by us at present, the problems of ART should be very carefully treated.
And of course, it is a question of philisophy as Leonid mentioned.

49. maria01/17/2007 13:16:13

I don't think AI should be the "sticking point" of this excellent initiative. Views such as Petra's paint an honest picture, though a negative one, and it is important that such views are heard. I am sure we can continue to discuss it but more than anything, I am looking to the next stage in this exciting development!

50. Hans-Jurg Buss01/17/2007 16:02:31

As I said Maria, we can continue to discuss this issue of AI or ART forever. Just because approaches are so different we must look for a practical solution which is widely accepted, a real compromise. To add just a last point: If you forbid AI it is nearly impossible to control whether "cooled down" fresh semen or frozen semen has been shipped let's say from North Germany to South of France instead of shipping the mare from South to North to the stallion..... No one can control that. And it is always problematic to establish rules which can not be controled. The only thing you can really control is whether frozen semen from already death or gelded stallions has been used. A "practical" solution would be to allow AI for living stallions (because this will always be done), but to prohibit for dead and gelded ones. This combines "philosophical" with "economic" approach. But as I said, we can continue discussing endlessly. Some compromise must be found.

51. Maria01/17/2007 16:56:31

Hans-Jurg, just the last response then When I discussed this with Leonid once, he expressed a view that cooled semen, particularly taken from the stallion on the same or nearby premises where the mare is, is not so bad, in his view. Because it is done almost like live cover, for the reason that live cover is difficult for some veterinary reason. Leonid's main objection was to ET because he felt that the host mother is bound to influence the development of the foal after it's been born. I am just passing on what he said. As you know, I am not a breeder, only an owner of a perfectly celibate stallion, so have absolutely no stake in this discussion whatsoever. And I do my best not let him run around wild though he did escape once. He ran to the neighbours' mares but stopped to admire them over the fence and I was lucky to catch him at that point.

52. Jessica01/17/2007 17:06:47

It all begins with the basics; rules for registration and identification of the animals to be inscribed as purebreds. If the register asks for a signed breeding report from the stallion owner, were method of breeding will have to be reported such as live cover, fresh semen, cooled, frozen, etc the breeding method will be known for all horses registered.
The register will have to decide which breeding method is not allowed for registration. For TB GSB the rule is clear: "all racehorses must be a result of a stallion's mating with a mare which is the physical mounting of mare by a stallion with intromission of the penis and ejaculation of semen into the mating tract. As an aid to the mating, a portion of the ejaculate produced by the stallion during such mating may immediately be placed in the reproductive tract of the mare being bred."
The register would have to formulate clear rules on what methods would be allowed for a foal to be registered, the WAHO has forbidden cloning, no cloned Arabian horse will be registered as purebreds, but foals produced by methods such as AI and ET to be inscribed as purebreds. WAHO has mandatory rules as well as policies. One policy is to not recommend stallion licensing as they consider it discriminating however, some national registries have stallion licensing. This has to do with the fact that a true world registry will have to consider differences in national rules and regulations for horse breeding.
Another important issue for a register to consider is if the register will accept to have horses dismissed from the register retroactively( as it is today with the Russian studbook).
The methods for proper identification, branding, chip markings etc.
The present method for identification is not satisfactory and will not be approved for an international registry.
For a registry to maintain integrity the methods for identification and verification of purity (according to the rules) must be as safe and transparent as possible. I think this is one of the bigger problems the breed is facing today.
An international register could actually work out mandatory rules as well as policies, a mandatory rule could be that a foal produced by semen from a dead stallion will never be allowed to be registered as purebred. A policy could be to limit the number of foals being registered from one stallion using the AI method. Stallion X can
have 20 offspring produced by AI, number 21 will not be registered.
But as Hans-Jürg pointed out, there must be an agreement about the AI issue as otherwise there would be registries for AI and ET produced Tekes (the Russian studbook) and registries that did not allow for those registrations. Certainly something to ponder about.
For me personally the accuracy of the records are of highest priority at this point as well as the service to the public and the breeders. At this point we all realise that the "mysticism" around registering and grading and other issues in the Russian studbook is not a good selling point for the heavenly breed.
I can see that the AI question can kill this international initiative in its embryonal stage which would be a pity.
Maybe a step by step approach on what would be acceptable is the best way, can fresh semen be accepted, can frozen and if so how many foals per year etc. Whatever is decided the method for breeding should be transparent and declared by the register, important statistics for future discussions can be pulled from such reports. As for now we do not know what foals are results of what breeding methods, except for those from dead stallions.
It would have been great to be able to see how many % of the foals annually that were produced by AI or ET for this discussion.

53. Jessica 01/17/2007 17:16:08

Robert, you can do so many cool things with a thoroughly designed database, you can for example give different accesses down to field level of every entered variable. You can have some fields that can be read by a big group and fields that can be read by a smaller group as well as fields that can be edited by one one person and of course you keep an audit trail on all changes. Pictures and scanned documents can be added for every horse. Total transparency and the right access to the right person.

54. Hans-Jurg Buss01/17/2007 18:59:57

Jessica, the AI issue will not kill a serious international initiative as long as we remain open minded. I called it a "practical" solution, you say "step by step". I think in the essence we agree, we just must establish basic rules for the immediate future and make sure that if these rules should be changed once in a more restrictive way that will not be applied retroactively. In today's practice I guess AI is not very widespread in AT breed. So this issue for rational people should not be allowed to become the killing element for a global and transparent registry/stud book.

55. shael01/18/2007 06:32:39
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

пропдвжв

56. shael01/18/2007 07:33:18
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Извините за предыдущий пост.
Я изложу свои мысли по русски, Маша, пожалуйста переведите если есть время.

О "дороговизне" искусственного осеменения (ИО). Петра привела расчёты и это всё равно это дешевле, чем брать жеребца в аренду или посылать кобылу на случку или покупать жеребца.
В Положении о Книге записано
"9. Жеребенок, полученный путем искусственного осеменения, может быть зарегистрирован в "Регистре молодняка" и записан в Студбуке под матерью только в том случае, если он получен от жеребца, одобренного Селекционно-племенным Центром. Для этого необходим официальный документ, подтверждающий факт искусственного осеменения, а также данные иммуногенетических тестов и тестов ДНК приплода и родителей. Регистрация таких жеребят стоит дороже."
То есть фактически идёт принудительное лицензирование жеребцов. Но это не главное.
Когда вы говорите, что купить жеребца дешевле, чем ИО, то мы видимо говорим о разных жеребцах. Я недавно продал жеребца за $ 3000, а случка с Газыром, Мургабом стоит от $ 5000. Если вас интересуют жеребцы топ уровня, то это совершенно другие деньги, как за случку, так и на их покупку. Я делю лошадей следующим образом:
1. Лошади для верховой езды - до $10000;
2. Лошади для верховой езды и при этом имеющие потенциал для спорта и племенного использования - от $ 10000 до 30000;
3. Лошади имеющие несомненную ценность для племенного использования - от 30000 до 50000;
4. Лошади, продажа которых нанесёт племенной ущерб коннозаводству, которые являются базовыми для завода - от 50000 до бесконечности.
При этом возраст лошади не имеет никакого значения.
Ценообразование зависит от объёма денежных масс, находящихся в обслуживании коннозаводства и его клиентов.
Необходимо создавать индустрию, где найдут для себя хлеб множество людей разных специальностей. Биотехнологии приведут к сокращению занятости людей и к выхолащиванию коннозаводства.
Всех жеребцов будут кастрировать, предварительно накачав спермы и продавать. Вместо конюшни с производителями будет стоять холодильник и DVD player. Поголовье кобыл будет значительно сокращено и как следствие будет сокращаться генофонд и творчество.
Надо сказать, что любая технология имеет обыкновение дешеветь и биотехнологии не исключение. Удешевление ахалтекинской лошади приведёт к потере рынка класса люкс, а на других секторах рынка царят другие герои.

57. maria01/18/2007 10:33:04

About the costs of Artificial Insemination (AI). Petra gave us some figures. It is still cheaper than leasing a stallion or sending a mare to be covered or buying a stallion. The Studbook Regulations say: 9. “A foal born as a result of Artificial Insemination can be registered in the Youngstock Register under its dam only if s/he has been sired by a stallion, approved by the Selection and Breeding Centre. For this, one must possess an official document, which confirms that Artificial Insemination had taken place, and also the results of immuno-genetic testing and DNA testing of the sire and dam and the off-spring. The cost of registration of such foals is higher than normal.” So in effect, there is a forced licensing of stallions taking place here. But this is not the main problem. When you say that to buy a stallion is cheaper than AI, we are most likely talking about different stallions. I recently sold a stallion for USD 3,000 but Gasyr’s or Murgab;s stallion fee is USD 5,000. If you are intersted in the top-quality stallions, then you need to think in terms of very different money, be it for purchase or cover. I divide horses in the following way: 1. Riding horses – up to USD 10,000 2. Riding horses which have a sports potential and breeding potential – between USD 10,000 and 30,000 3. Horse which clearly have breeding value – from 30,000 to 50,000 4. Horse whose sale will cause harm to the breeding work of the stud and which form the foundation stock of the stud – from USD 50,000 to infinity The age of the horse is immaterial. Price levels are set depending on the monetary pool available to the breeders and their clients. It is necessary to create an industry in which many people of different specialisations will find a bread-winning occupation. Biotechnologies will lead to the reduction in the range of these occupations and the horse-breeding becoming sterile. All the stallions will get gelded, after they have been collected for sale. Instead of a stable with breeding stallions there will be a freezer and a DVD player. The number of breeding mares will be reduced with a subsequent reduction in genetic diversity and in creativity. Also, it should be mentioned that any technology has the tendency to become more affordable and AI is no exception. The reduction in prices of the Akhal-Teke horses will lead to the loss of the luxury-goods market, and the other sectors of the market is ruled by their own kings.

58. Jessica01/18/2007 11:03:52

Let' focus on the issues we can agree on, like creating a good and sound breed with a thrilling legend and multiple usage that will interest a market that is prepared to pay a little bit extra for a unique horse. The prices asked for Tekes today, even top prices, are low compared to top prices paid for other horse breeds.
There is plenty of room for improvement and I think falling back on issues that split rather than unite is not good marketing and will not create the market this breed deserves and needs to survive.

The reality today is that AI and ET is allowed in our breed. National studbooks for the breed such as Russia, USA, Switzerland and France allow AI in this breed and to be honest I do not think these studbooks will close their registries for AI produced foals in the future.
As Leonid knows the marketing of the Teke breed is very much about hard work and finding the right investors, in order to do so we should present the Teke concept in an attractive package.
Next step that Maria asked for is to create a group of breeders that are willing to sacrifice time to work out a concept for how to improve international cooperation.

59. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/18/2007 13:39:02
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

Thank you Leonid for explaining AI like that. I am making up a Squidoo lens (http://www.squidoo.com/breed/) on breeding and I would like to put the translated version of your comment (#57) on it - is that ok?

60. maria01/18/2007 14:08:18

With an attribution for author and translator, please...

61. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/18/2007 14:19:50
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

sorry - http://www.squidoo.com/breed

62. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/18/2007 14:22:35
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

what is your last name Maria and do you have a webpage?
Thanks!

63. Maria01/18/2007 15:46:12

Kerri-Jo, no webpage, I am afraid, and several Last Names due to itinerant lifestyle. Go for "Maria Marquise" - the enfant terrible of the Yahoo list.

64. Jessica01/18/2007 15:49:31

Kerri, make sure that you refer to writer, translator as well as refer with link to this blog.
Maria, if you are the enfant terrible on the Yahoo list, who am I

65. shael01/18/2007 15:59:22
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

I prefer to be king terrible

66. Jessica01/18/2007 16:39:50

The three djigits Leonid the King Terrible, Alexander the King of History, Todd the king of Cyberstudbook have been joined in the fight for the survival of the Argamak by Maria the Enfant Terrible on her white steed with blue eyes. More djigits will join and soon, again, the Argamak will be most sought after horse in the world!

67. Darya01/19/2007 05:23:55
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I love discussions like this one! The only name I can think for myself is Darya the Windblown with Dominik the Loud after our yesterdays adventures...

Kerry, nice job with gathering all the info nicely on one page!

Best,

Darya

68. shael01/19/2007 05:48:13
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Пресс-релиз

Вырастить сына, построить дом, посадить дерево… и увидеть текинца

5000 лет традиций чистокровного разведения.ахалтекинской породы лошадей.
“Ахалтекинская лошадь — это первая чистокровная порода мира, последние капли того источника чистой крови, с помощью которой было создано всё культурное коннозаводство…”
В течение тысячелетий не было другой породы лошадей, которая по красоте, силе, резвости и выносливости могла выдержать сравнение с ахалтекинцами.
В.О.Витт
Россия стала второй родиной для ахалтекинской лошади. Нигде невозможно найти такого количества энтузиастов, любителей и знатоков этой удивительной породы лошадей. ŦДревние россияне любили сих лошадей безмерно… и потомкам надлежит оправдать их выборŧ - писал в 1824 году первый русский иппологический еженедельник.
В мире нет более эффектной лошади, чем величественный ахалтекинец, гибкий и пружинистый, переливающийся золотом на солнце, плавно скользящий на рыси или стелющийся в галопе. (А. Климук)
Никакая лошадь не представляет такого сочетания длинных линий с такими видимыми признаками силы и высокой энергии. Европейцу он мог бы показаться слишком тонким и лёгким, но, внимательно присмотревшись к строению туркменского коня, находишь удивительную приспособленность к быстроте и сопротивлению. Какие рычаги, какие мускулы, сухожилия, ширина и объём сочленений! (Э Гайо - французский ипполог)
Ахалтекинская, несомненно, одна из красивейших конских пород. Кто раз увидел ахалтекинца, всегда отличит его среди других лошадей: экстерьер его необычен и поражает взгляд утонченностью и благородством.

Будучи древнейшей чистокровной породой, ахалтекинцы признаны прародителями современного культурного коневодства, первыми в ряду чистокровных пород. (А. Климук)

Нигде в Мире и только в России есть возможность увидеть звезд конного мира - царственных ахалтекинцев на уникальном шоу ŦТекинская Пальмира – шаЭльŧ. Свои Ŧбриллиантыŧ представят мировые лидеры ахалтекинского коннозаводства, а также лошади из частных коллекций. (в том числе из конюшни В. Путина).
На суд зрителей и авторитетного жюри будет представлен многоступенчатый конкурс, где цвет текинских лошадей будет показан во всём своём величии, как на свободе, так и в сравнении - в борьбе за звание ŦСамой красивой лошади - 2007ŧ.
Парад красоты и грации сопровождается оригинальной живой музыкой и танцами, окрашенными в восточные тона.
ХХl век даёт человеку удивительные возможности, но увидеть лучших из живых потомков боевых соратников Египетских фараонов, царя Соломона и Александра Великого можно только в России, на шоу ŦТекинская Пальмира – шаЭльŧ.
Эти лошади пахнут потом Дария. (А. Глухарёв)

Л. Бабаев
http://horsegames.ru/

69. 01/19/2007 09:29:35

To raise a son, to build a house, to plant a tree… and to see a real Akhal-Teke. A five-thousand-year-old tradition of breeding a pure Akhal-Teke horse. “The Akhal-Teke horse – is the first thoroughbred horse in the world, the last drops of the orginal source of the pure blood which helped to created all cultivated breeding traditions in the world...” For thousands of years, there was no other breed of equal beauty, strength, speed and stamina (V.O. Vitt). Russian has become a second homeland for the Akhal-Teke horse. Nowhere can one find the same numbers of enthusiasts, connoisseurs and experts of this marvellous breed. “Ancient Russian admired this horse immesurably… and their descendants should strive to prove that their choice was right”, writes the author of an article in one of the first Russian Equestrian weekly journals. There is no other horse that leaves such unforgettable impression as the noble Akhal-Teke – lithe, light and springy, glistening with gold in the rays of the sun, with its smooth gliding trot and a ground-lining gallop (A. Klimuk). No other horse has the unique combination of long, elegant lines with such overtly expressive signs of strength and energy. To a European eye it may appear to be of slight built but if one looks carefully at its conformation one will find a remarkable aptitude for speed and endurance. “What engine, what muscles, tendons, width and capacity of its joints!” (E. Gallo – French Hippologist). The Akhal-Teke horse is certainly one of the most beautiful breeds. Those who have seen it once, will always recognised it amongst other horses: its appearance is unique and strikes one’s eye with its refinement and noble form. As one of the most ancient of all pure breeds, the Akhal-Teke horse is recognised as the precursor of all modern “cultivated” breeding, the first thoroughbred tradition. (A. Klimuk) Nowhere in the world other than in Russia will people get a comparable chance to see the brightest-shining stars of the equestrian world, as when the regal Akhal-Teke horses will be appear at the unique show “Teke Palmira – shaEl”. The jewels of the breed will be presented by the leading breeders of the Akhal-Teke, including horses from private collections (among them, the stables of President Putin). The spectators and the authoritative panel of judges will evaluate a multi-phase contest, where the Akhal-Teke horse will appear in all its glamour – in free-moving style individually and in competition to win the title of “The Most Beautiful Horse - 2007”. The parade of beauty and grace will be accompanied by live music and dance, in Eastern style. The 21st century affords people an array of opportunities, yet, in order to see the living descendants of the equine companions of the Egyptian pharaohs, of King Solomon and Alexander the Great, one has to come to Russia, to the equestrian show “Teke Palmira – shaEl”. These horses carry the smell of the sweat of the Emperor Darius (A. Glukharev). L. Babaev http://horsegames.ru/

70. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/19/2007 16:45:09
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

Wow, what a beautiful description of Akhal-Tekes. I hope this event is a yearly one so I can go next year!

Once again I have put your comment Leonid on another lens ( http://www.squidoo.com/akhal-tekes/ )

Thanks Darya - I figured as I am searching for information I may as well make it available to others.

71. Jessica01/19/2007 17:50:07

Leonid, can you email me a cool picture so that I can add the press release as main subject. It will be so exciting to see the pictures from the event!

72. shael01/20/2007 03:14:58
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Jessica, I don't understand you. This show will be in May.
http://horsegames.ru/publication/index.php?publicationtree_id=37

73. Darya01/20/2007 04:38:43
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Some Akhal Teke pics there: http://horsegames.ru/gallery/index.php?gallerytree_id=19

74. shael01/20/2007 05:06:22
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

That are accidental and not best pictures.

75. Darya01/20/2007 06:22:42
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I can see that, but thought I share the link as not everyone can look through the web as it is in Russian. Have you got any nice ones that haven't been published yet? Would be nice to see. May be you can send them to Jessica and she can put them up on the blog. Thanks for all the beautiful descriptions of AT, and thanks Maria for translating beautifully too. It seems like among all the discussions sometimes we forget to admire the horses. It certainly made me feel good.

76. maria01/20/2007 15:08:12

Jessica and all, Does anyone have a photo of Piastr? I would like to see it. Also, I wonder if another string could be started - I would like to discuss stallions versus mares in the Akhal-Teke breed and how they behave under saddle, and whether the gender manifests itself differently in the AT compared to other breeds. Is it true that AT stallions are, in some ways, easier to deal with than stallions of other breeds? Is it true that mares are more subdued and compliant and fenimine that one would expect in another breed? Is the fact that historically stallions were mainly ridden and not mares - does it have an influence on the behaviour of an AT today? Those who have ridden lots of them might have some insights to share... If you think it's a load of rubbish, by all means tell me so. I suspect it might be.

77. Darya01/20/2007 15:46:24
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Maria,
here's one of Piastr, keep scrolling: http://www.hevosmaailma.net/Breedinfo/Pics/akhal.shtml

Interesting subject, would be nice to hear people's opinions and experiences.

Darya

78. maria01/20/2007 16:47:27

Thank you, Darya! What a long-legged creature. Now I would like to see what his foal Goluntchik turned out to be like... He belongs to Andrea Rauter in Austria but the only picture of him is when he was very young...

79. Jessica01/29/2007 09:51:55

Maria, I created a new thread on gender differences. I would like to add about Piastr, that he has loads of energy, he is very long lined and elegant, he is not a beginners horse though!

1. maria03/30/2007 07:32:24

Our most vocal resident is Spinney, the 27-year-old cob. He makes the same noise as a mare makes to a foal. It invariable means "I want..." - fill in the dots. Spinney is a simple horse: he wants to eat, go out and come in. He is not an Akhal-Teke. Mualim, on the other hand, has a versatile AT mind. He makes a "holler" noise (high-pitched neigh) when I arrive at the yard. He makes a threatening snorting noise when Spinney enters the adjacent stable. But most recently, he appears to have picked up from Spinney the mare-to-foal rambling noise which he makes when he has done something right in the manege and is about to get a treat. We have started having problems with stopping lately, he doesn't want to stop to a light aid. Very disappointing but we are working on it. I decided to follow Leonid's traditional method "knutom i prianikom" (carrot and stick, in English), so when he DOES stop as soon as he is asked, he gets a prianik, and out comes "prrtrr-prrtrrr-prrtrrr".

2. Jessica04/01/2007 20:51:22

Maria, I think with Mualim being so vocal you might be to avantgarde for the dressage circuit. I'm, not sure the dressage judges are ready for this kind of communication yet.
On another note, our big time photo model Rosanna tried to make a fuzz over having a rose water, bubble bath (yes it is true, no 1 st of April joke) before world renowned photographer came out, like she had never had a bath before, I smacked her with my hand on her wet skin, I guess the sound and feeling shocked her into total submission!
Then I suddenly remembered that her mother used to do the same thing, work herself up until you smacked her and then she came down to earth and actually listened to you.

1. maria05/02/2007 19:22:00

I can't believe this! Of all the dates, it should be one I absolutely can't make! And with my son studying there, I have more reason than one to go to Vienna - I wish I never saw this announcement

2. Carolyn05/03/2007 00:38:20

Oh why can't the date be a month later- I will actually be in Vienna then!

3. Jessica05/03/2007 10:48:17

Hmm, I'm happy to be only the messenger in this case, still we can hope for pictures. Maria, why don't you send your son with a camera?

1. Jessica D.10/12/2006 13:17:45

oo...do you know where we can find this magazine?? I would like to read a copy of it at least. :)

1. Anne-Marie03/04/2007 11:22:48
Homepage: http://freedomrunfarm.com

He looks great!!!

2. Darya03/04/2007 12:14:03
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Lovely chocolate boy. mmmm chocolate...

3. 03/05/2007 08:01:34

That is some topline! A lot of warmbloods would envy one like it!

4. Jessica03/07/2007 08:37:05

Yes, Ozal has a very good and strong top line, a weak top line is one of the traits that needs continuous improvement in this breed, Ozal would be interesting as improver of Teke mares with weak top line.

1. Leonid10/28/2005 04:38:41
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

It is not question of original habitat. It is next:
1. Style of breeder. Ofcourse everybody choices such breed material wich conforms to his mine.
2. Style of trenning. There are one general kind of sport - races in Caucasia and Turcmenia. So, horses are super dry, thin and athletic. In Europe have not races, horses has more classic trenning, favouring to increasing of massiveness.
3. Style of meals. It is not secret, there are abstemious diet in Turcmenia.
4. Style of marcet.

2. maria11/01/2005 15:43:56

Lenia, u nekotorykh Akhal-Tekintsev takoi apetit, chto spasu net. Chistoe obzhorstvo i nikakoi konditsii.

1. Darya09/30/2006 07:56:26
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Would be very good without all the brainwashing (politics). My website is up and running by the way. :)

2. Heather Mahoney10/02/2006 09:42:41

Jessica,
Thank you for sharing the article with those of us that weren't able to listen to the radio broadcast.

Darya,
Your website looks very nice! I saw the dates for the Royal Show... I will keep that in mind! As we discussed before, I was disappointed that I would not be able to attend the May show you were talking about, but maybe the July show would be perfect, as we'll be on summer break from school, and I'll have no students to miss me! Will there be other AT's at the Royal show as well?
Cheers,
Heather

3. Darya10/02/2006 10:51:32
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Heather,
I'm glad you liked the web site, we are to get the contract in Nov for the Royal Show, so we will definitely be there. It is south of Birmingham, not that far from us actually. Maria is comming with her cremello beauty as well. You are welcome to see us there. I'm still not sure about the Devon County, still waiting for reply from them, we might get one later.

4. Leonid10/02/2006 15:26:10
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Хорошую кобылу Вы купили.

5. Darya10/02/2006 15:56:35
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you Leonid. I'm quite proud of both of them, she is a proper Turkmen horse. It is all quite exciting for me now, as I started working on them and it makes me feel very good with every step we take. I had trouble catching her first time out in the field, but the bucket with oats did the job fine. Second day I can catch her fine, she starts to trust me and that makes me one happy owner. :) I think I'll take some new pictures of them tomorrow or the day after and put them on the website in the gallery. Didn't take any yet, just wanted to make sure they are all settled in.

6. Leonid10/02/2006 16:08:01
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

She is really russian, four generations of russian selection. But who is second?

7. Leonid10/03/2006 03:19:19
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Дарья, а кем Вы собираетесь крыть Ойнам? Я бы Вам посоветовал Каракойсу от Гайгысыза. Он находится где-то во Франции.

8. Darya10/03/2006 04:19:01
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Leonid, Spasibo za sovet, krit hochu svoim jerebcom, Dominikom, tam informaciya est na moyom saite o nyom. Naskol'ko ya znayu, on toje russkii, linii Gelishikli. Posmotrite na ego rodoslovnuyu na saite, vi luchshe menya znayete, kto est kto. Ya dumayu, chto on horoshii jerebchik, ne legendarnii, no ochen horosh. Takovo moyo mnenie, v lyubom sluchaye.

9. Leonid10/03/2006 05:03:20
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Буду надеятся, что Вы не ошиблись в подборе.

10. Heather Mahoney10/03/2006 10:11:04

Leonid,
Who is this stallion in France? I did not recognize the name. Of course, this could be due to my very bad Russian, which truly, is not very good at all.

11. Darya10/03/2006 11:18:46
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Ochen priyatno, chto vi za menya perejivaete (ili za kobilu?). Tak ili inache, eto delo moei jizni teper', i mne to bol'she vsego i nado volnovatsya, a ne vam. Da i v dobavok, ona je ne odnogo tol'ko jerebyonka rodit, ya nadeyus'. Posmotrim, chto poluchitsya, esli ne dovolna budu rezultatom, to mojet i s drugim jerebchikom poeksperimentiruem. Pervii jerebyonok u neyo uj ochen horosh. Vot ssilka na ego foto: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/h6.php?id=509 For confused non-Russian bloggers, I'm very sorry for my Russian. This is the link for my mare's first son, Osiris.

Da i kstati, Leonid, ya dumala, chto vo Francii tol'ko plohie Tekinci, eto uje ne tak?

12. maria10/03/2006 12:07:41

Dasha, there are some very good Teke in France, actually, including some of Shael breeding (including a yearling by Shaar) but there are others too. Azan is in France, for example. This is a link to Karakaisu: http://www.alamanstud.com/site_fr/ I will be happy to introduce you to the French breeders I know. The Association has done a lot of good work in France in the last couple of years.

13. Leonid10/03/2006 12:47:42
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Не зря говорят, не давай не прошенных советов. Тут же нарвался. Да по большому счёту, мне всё равно каких ишаков Вы будете разводить. Достойную кобылу жалко. Во Франции, безусловно есть отдельные достойные лошади, в том числе Каракойсу.

Blocked Response!10/03/2006 13:10:16

This response from IP Address 62.242.231.62 was blocked by the owner of this blog.

15. Darya10/03/2006 14:33:01
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Maria, i Leonid, ya pro loshadei vo Francii malo chego znayu, i eto ne moyo utverjdenie, chto tam horoshih loshadei net, ya uverena, chto est'. Prosto mne pripomnilsya odin iz starih blogov, gde kto to skazal chto to o negodnosti Francuzkih loshadei. Leonid, ya toje Russkaya, i k sojaleniyu, kak i vi, govoryu, chto dumayu. Vot i poluchaetsya okaziya. Ya znayu, chto vse vas tut bogotvoryat za vashu ekspertizu i loshadei. No ya esli kogo uvajayu, to ojidayu uvajeniya vozvrat. Chisto iz soobrajenii normalnogo chelovecheskogo obsheniya, a ne iz soobrajeniya, u kogo ferma bol'she i loshadei bol'she. Eto tut sovershenno ni pri chyom. Menya vpolne ustraivaet, esli vse ostanutsya pri svoih mneniyah. I eto pravo kajdogo cheloveka, kotoroe ne doljno pritisnyatsya drugimi lyudmi. Ladno, i tak dostatochno viskazalas. Ochen nadeyus, chto poimyote. Kobilu jalyet nechego, pomimo geneticheskogo materiala, ona jivotnoe, i ei tut ochen horosho, a eto samoe glavnoe, esli vam loshadi nravyatsya toje pomimo deneg.

16. Leonid10/03/2006 14:49:36
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Стало не интересно.

17. Jessica 10/03/2006 15:24:27

Leonid and Darya, with Todd's and Maria's help I can understand a little bit of what you are discussing.
I would like to take the opportunity to ask Leonid how you look at the birth right of breeding that comes with every pure bred stallion vs. selection of the breeding couples.
If every pure bred Teke stallion has birth right to be bred, how do you select the right partner to every stallion, or is it so, that eventhough every pure bred stallion has a birth right, not all of them should be bred.
The next breeding season we have in Europe the best year ever, in my opinion when it comes to selection of young unproven breeding stallions with very high estimated breeding value, very interesting imports have been made into countries such as Germany and France. Karakaisu certainly is of very valuable blood lines as well as of excellent type, it will be very interesting to see his first babies.
We are happy that we still have a mare in Europe when we have such a nice selection. A stallion that should be used more is also Ardon from the Arab line, he looks very promising as an improver.
However, no stallion is a magician so before we can see a real improvement in Europe, the new interesting stallions should really be bred to good mares.

18. Darya10/03/2006 15:45:05
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Jessica,
<br>I am very sorry for this discussion turning into what it did, I did my best to avoid it. It does confuse me as Leonids position tends to change to suit the situation. One minute he is saying that any teke parents produce teke horse and the rest is nonsence, next minute he says one should not breed this horse, it is no good (to be more exact, a mule). For people it is really unclear, as there appeares to be no standarts, just opinions of experts, who can't make up their mind. May be you will clear the situation for me and tell me what is so wrong with my stallion? I think he looks very Teke and got some good horses like Dagestan in his pedigree. In the end, I did not expect anyone to get so excited about my mare, she is only class 1, same as the stallion, and I just wanted to get a couple of good sound Tekes (not excellent, not everyone can afford that), so I can breed some interesting, exotic and sound horses. They have had some wonderful mares and wonderful stallions at Akhal Service farm, I wish I could have bought them, but they are about 4 times more expensive, than mine, which were both for around the same price. So I am completely puzzled, what is all the fuss about? I'm not trying to compete with any big breeders, I'm merely an advertisement to the breed in this country, where a lot of people don't know anything about Tekes, so it is all only good for big breeders in Russia as more people will be interested in going and buying their horses.

19. Leonid10/03/2006 16:21:26
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Certainly, any pure Stallion can produce foals. Where is I said another? I like this genetic comlex Maxud-Opera, and congratulated Darya with Oynam. I recomended to cover her by Karakoysu and met agressia for my advice. I did not say even one bad word about Dominic, it is not my right. I said that Karakoysu seems good for Oynam only. Replay was unequal. I stop any connections by this theem.

20. Darya10/03/2006 16:34:24
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

How funny is that, now I am agressive. I quote: you can breed any mules you want. Or was that not about my horses? Since the mare is good, there is only one other mule left at my farm, or did I miss anyone? I only answered your questions, although, why do I bother, you change your words around quicker than the weather changes in England. I will never answer your questions again, I have learned my lesson, thank you.

21. Jessica 10/03/2006 17:34:45

Leonid and Darya,
I think we need more of these discussions in this breed, how do we select our breeding stallions? How do we educate new and enthusiastic breeders? How do we improve the quality of the Tekes in the west? Those discussions however are better and more giving without named stallions.
All of us wants more Tekes to be born and we need new enthusiastic owners as well as skilful, well educated (theoretically and hands on) breeders!
However, my point in asking Leonid about birth right to breed is of course that I do not agree with him on this issue and I like to discuss it with a breeder of Leonid's calibre.
I think there should be some kind of stallion approval procedure to at least recommend stallions from the different lines with different proven breeding values for racing, endurance, type improvement, height improvement, gaits, temperament etc.
These service to new and established breeders would, in my opinion, lead to an overall breed improvement.
As you can see Darya ( and also Akhalt Service in the pricing of the mare) has followed the recommendations given by MAAK.
It must be great for Darya to with the help of an experienced breeder come to the understanding that the class I mare has interesting blood lines and therefore a high breeding value. The recommendation to use Karakaisu is correct and given with good intentions. (I cannot comment on the mule issue as I do not read Russian! But maybe comparing someones Teke stallion to a mule might cause very intense feelings, like ball counting =).)
And Darya I do not think you should interpret this as your stallion is bad, but only that a better combination for your mare is Karakaisu, of course you as the breeder will do the selection.
What Leonid is not aware of though, is that in Europe and also to a larger extent in the USA the Tekes live like swans, the couples stay together forever, stallions are cheaper (here in the US you can almost get them for free as resque horses) than mares and once they are purchased they are used on the owner's mares until they die.
The approved by owners stallions are also advertised with every trait the imagination can come up with, however seldom as type improvers.
This situation discourage people from importing high class stallions from Russia into Europe or the USA, the market is flooded with bre eding stallion and each stallion can count on very few mares, so an investment in a high priced top class stallion will not give anything back. This I think must in a near future be discussed and I think we could together come up with some good ideas.
The situation in Russia is so very different from the reality in the west and I think we all have to realise this. We must realise that few Teke owners/breeders in the west have a good basic education on bloodlines and selection of Tekes and therefore have difficulties in evaluating breeding stock. We should really benchmark the work of education of Teke owners performed by MAAK with the work of many other succesful breeds that flourish outside their home country.

22. Darya10/04/2006 01:47:35
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you very much for your reply, Jessica. I intended to purchase Dominik, so I can use him for stud with other horses as well as breeding with my mare. She's got excellent bloodlines- perfect, all the better I'll have a good chance of getting a better foal. I intend to breed him with my mare, so I do not axe his breeding career before it has even started. No one is going to be interested in him, if I do not think he is even good enough for my mare. As a small breeder, I can not afford that. I can understand all the good wishing, but we have got to look at things realistically. There is very few people out here in the west to be able to afford things you are on about. I'm very hopeful, that give us a few years, we might grow and afford better things. Big studs in Russia didn't grow one night after some good rain either. The west is harder cos things here are just so much more expensive. I think we need breeders who both understand the culture of the breed and the country the horses come from and have a good idea about standards, and also understand how the west works too. I want to breed typical Tekes, as there is more than enough good sport horses here. I consider there is a niche for Tekes similar of the one of Arabians. I'm sorry, but again, we must look at things realistically. And Dominik is approved for breeding by MAAK, so if Leonid is not happy, he can go and tell them, although I believe this is not what the real problem is.

23. Leonid10/04/2006 02:01:02
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Jessica, you are the best. My possition is very simple. Anybody can use any horse in the breeding. It is his bussines, his risk, his market. It is possible to educate somebody, if this somebody wants do it.

24. Leonid10/04/2006 02:09:33
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

I can add only. Oynam (Maxud-Opera) is brilliant mare, possible one of the best in Europe. Such level of horses is not for simple good keeping. Oynam needs exelent Stallion, such like Karakoysu.

25. Darya10/04/2006 02:35:51
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I'm happy you like the mare, but good horses are not only the privelege of big breeders, and small ones more certainly need good horses to do a good job. I am thasnkful for your advice, as I said before, I will keep that in mind, I'm considering to breed her with a different stallion for a second season, but this one will be Dominik, and I'm very eager to see his first baby, than we will judge who's worth what. Thank you for your advice and concearn once again.

26. Blanca10/04/2006 04:51:29

In my opinion, one of the big problems we have in the West –at least, in Europe- is that we don't have enough knowledge when mating our horses. That gives a somehow poor offspring, which in general is not as impressive as their parents. So while you can find some good horses of first (imported) generation , the "European" generation is not as typey as their sire/mare. In this regard, I really appreciate the opinion of experimented AT people.

Having said so, I'm very excited to see the first products of the recent imports to Germany and of course, yours, Darya!

27. Leonid10/04/2006 05:16:52
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Blanca, it is been, becourse new breeders is fall in love with horses. But the Love is not good adviser in the breeding.

28. Darya10/04/2006 05:51:27
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you very much, Blanca, I am very excited, and slightly nervous, of course, cos this is so important for me now. And you have got to be in love with the horses, to be mad enough to buy them for a tidy little sum (for some people, from some scary Russia as well), specially that there is not much known about them and their performance and there is so many issues surrounding the breed and the breeding. That is the difference between big studs, where people take up breeding as profession, and small studs, where people are mostly driven by passion, otherwise they would be mad to buy some weird Akhal Teke horse. There are but very few horse "factories", as they call them in Russia here in the West. They are but the remains of the soviet structure, where everything had to be industrial style. I do appreciate the professionalism of the big farms, but my oppinion is that quite often because of the number of the horses they have, not a lot of horses get individual approach and, quite often, lack health care and training. Therefore I agree there should be communication between professionals and enthusiasts, without bullying or calling horses names, as we both need each other. This is for the sake of the breed becoming recognized and appreciated all around the world. Otherwise the breed will continue to suffer.

29. Jessica 10/04/2006 11:38:22

Darya,
There has been and will be top class horses produced by small and big breeders. The quality of the horses from one stud farm is not determined by the size of the stud farm. A horse factory or as it is called here in the US a breeding mill, is a place where horses are produced with the only goal to accumulate a quantity of horses and not a quality. This method is applied by small and large breeders.
It is very limiting to generalise within a breed and dismiss bigger breeders as producers without heart and consider small breeders better and more caring.
The product of the breeder (the horse itself) will tell you more than a flashy website and marketing buzz words.
A quality Teke (type and bloodlines), built to function as a riding horse, in good condition, trained according to his age, that is trusting with people obviously comes from a good breeder that has been doing his selection, raising and training properly.
We all know that love makes you blind =). What Leonid means with falling in love with your horses is the well known saying in horse breeding, "do not fall in love with your breeding stock" which means that you should re-evaluate your selections continously in an objective way, this does not mean that you do not care for your horses or that you are not passionate about the breed.
The horse market in the west is gigantic and the best horses in the world when it comes to speed, jumping, dressage and beauty are bred here.
If we want to make the Teke breed interesting here we have to make sure that we present this multibillion market with top class horses from the Teke breed, there are already millions of mediocre horses here.
The concept "approved by MAAK" does not exist more than the fact that the horse is registered as a pure bred. MAAK does not work with any quality concepts, it is up to each and every breeder to make the selections and get started with a breeding program. The Akhal-Teke breed is probably one of the cheapest breed to get started with in Europe and the USA as anyone can use any registered pure bred in breeding and the price of the Tekes start very low. The knowledge about the breed is very limited and few Tekes that are in the west have the quality to attract the serious horse breeders/owners. This, in my opinion is due to the lack of serious work with breed improvement in the west. The reason to why we have no serious work with breed improvement in the west is that those engaged in the associations cannot look further than the horses they have in their own backyard. And will do next to anything to make sure that their own, in far to many cases, mediocre breeding programs are not threatened. And no one is happier than MAAK about this because their premium goal is to protect Russian breeding and their own profits made from Russian breeding.

30. Leonid10/04/2006 12:27:45
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Even not protect Russian breeding.

31. Darya10/04/2006 12:41:45
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Ok, we will sit and wait for a person with a big sack of money to come out and put the breed right. Anyone?

32. Jessica 10/04/2006 13:08:01

That is not what I said. There are already breeders with literary sacks of money in this breed, I mean that we need good breeders in this breed that understand how to breed quality horses.
The open discussion on the state of the breed and how to work for improvement is very much needed and I have never said that we should sit down and wait for anything. That is a strategy that will defenitely lead to a null result. On the other hand we have to work harder, but in order to define the goal we will have to be open and honest about the present situation. If you are serious about this breed, you will probably find out if you are after your "honey moon", I do hope that you will realise the need for an open, constructive dialogue and the need for continuous improvement.
I could have chosen to be insulted by your interpretation of my work and my communications as "sit down and wait" but I have decided to not being insulted by peoples remarks, I merely realise the difficulties in cross-cultural communications. So Darya, do you really think that the sit down and wait strategy is a serious contribution to the work with this breed?

33. Heather Mahoney10/04/2006 13:18:06

It has been interesting to read the passionate contributions of everyone to this conversation. First and foremost, I think we must remember that the conversation would not get so inflamed if those involved were not passionate about this breed, and it is that passion that will support the continued development of the breed.
That said however, I agree with Leonid that love is not the best judge of breeding stock. But with that in mind, by giving breeding rights to any all and stallions that come about from educated or uneducated breeders, you run the risk of compromising the quality of the akhal-teke breed. (And I am NOT just talking about ball-counting... I'm talkng type and style). It is well and good to say it is every individual's responsibility to find what they consider suitable breeders. But western interest in Akhal-Tekes (which Jessica rightly points out can be a multi-billion dollor market) WILL wain if low quality or even mediocre AT's become so prevelant to western eyes that they obscure the "real thing" available in smaller quantities. With a breed as rare as the AT it is MORE important to ensure the quality of breeding stock, because western investors are less likely to have been exposed to exceptional individuals. We have all seen so-so warmbloods all over the place, but we can easily see world-class examples on TV, and those that can afford them know where to go. If you want to promote AT's you have to get some fabulous animals out there to attract attention, so people know the quality that the breed is capable of producing.
Now, I know MAAK might disagree with me, but this is only benefited through breeder approval tests or grading, like that used for some warmbloods, or the Keurings held for Friesian horses (my other equine love). These events expose interested investors to the very best the breed has to offer, and provide motivation to breeders to really focus on breed improvement over producing quantity.
Darya: I can sympathize with you on not being able to afford the very best horses. I have worked with OTHER people's horses worth hudreds of thousands, but I am a teacher. Worse, I am a teacher in a state where the salary is $6000 less than the national average. I love being a teacher, and the low salary is the price I pay for wanting to remain in academia, which is my passion. I will not be purchasing a $100K horse anytime soon. But the quality of the breed is important enough to me, that I will spend what is necessary to have a higher than average quality animal when the time comes. And it doesn't mean that through passion, determination and self-education we can't produce animals on par with the biggest studs in Russia.
I think I could keep talking, but your eyes must be tired from my typing, which has gone on to long...

34. Leonid10/04/2006 13:21:09
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Jessica, look before. Darya desided to breed this breed like exotic sound horse.

35. Darya10/04/2006 14:37:12
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you, Heather, for your comments. I do not wish to sound miserable, or uneducated about the breed (after all, I was offered a completely different mare, but I had a look at all the available options, and seem to have done a good choice, since she deserved such high remarks from Leonid). What bothers me is you abstract talking, it gets frustrating for me, as people seem to disagree with my choice of a stallion, but do not say, why. We need to talk, and discuss, but discussions like this are just a waste of time, since to me, such a silly person, it is still largely unclear, what things you take into account when giving this or that advice. I have never heard of Karakoisu, so can I even see his pedigree? Someone got a link? Why should I jump into this advice, when I have never even seen the horse? I said I will look into it, but the reply I got was one of breeding mules. I understand your desire to attract more buyers to the AT. Let me put it this way. Where I live now just couple miles away from me there are two big stud farms, both breed good warmblood horses (hannoverians and so on). All of them are generally cheaper, than mine costed me to buy and import. Now to a traditional, and generally snobbish British eye, Tekes look weird, even the best Teke. I've showed them pictures and saw a lot of people's reaction. So what do you think a lot of people will do when they look for a sport horse? Go next door and buy a Hannoverian. Bragging on about Absent does not impress anyone any more, that was a long time ago. And there are no good achievers like that for a while now. Why don't you sell one of your wonderful sport Tekes to some professional, so we have a new Absent. You said there is plenty of people with money, let them help. People here do not run and buy the hat the queen wore last week, like they do run buying Tekes when Vladimir bought one in Russia. It doesn't work here this way.
I think what puts people off the breed as well, is that there is no proper standards and one expert tells you this horse is magnificent, and a different expert is saying that that horse is crap. This money driven attempts to create monopoly on the breed by different big breeders are really a laugh! You claim to be supporting and educating people, but all the people seem to get is criticism, rather than a proper advice. This only encourages people to go just look at their backyard, and create horrific average horses. Well done for that! Good job on improving the breed! And I was not dismissing big breeders as heartless, you can love the breed to your hearts content, but if you have got 100 horses, and only 5 people to look after them, you can only do so much. I know not all horse factories are like that, but a lot often are. Believe me I lived most of my life in Russia. In the end, I have only just brought my horses across here and you haven't even seen my offspring yet, is not it a bit early to criticise someone?

The only breed here that enjoys such breeding with big stables plenty of professional breeders and vets 24-7 is millions worth of thoroughbreds. I do look realistically at Tekes and have not got love making me blind. I don't think you will be selling Tekes for that price. All the other breeds are bred by smaller places, but there are standards and guidelines to follow, so the breeds do not suffer. All you seem to have done so far is bragging on about bad MAAK and no proper work towards actually sorting something out. It only confuses and puts people off. So we have got nothing better than MAAK, so it is recomendations of MAAK I'm going to follow, and breed class 1 mare to class 1 stallion, that has been recommended for breeding.

36. Heather Mahoney10/04/2006 15:26:01

Darya,
I can see that you are frustrated. Most importantly, YOU must be happy with the direction you are taking in your breeding program. Breed Oynam to Dom, and see how the foal turns out. You always have the option of breeding her to a different stallion, as Leonid suggested, later. I cannot comment on the mule comment, but advice from high caliber breeders cannot be discounted, even if it was not given in the most professional way. I do not know of the stallion in France, so I cannot comment on him, and your Dom is a handsome boy. There will always be bigger, better breeders than what we personally have out there, and suggesting as much is not an insult, although I can understand that the method of suggestion might be. As Jessica said, though, I think it is best in an international forum such as this blog to determine not to be insulted, as there are always culture misunderstandings to overcome.
As for your other concerns - I know Britain can be very warmblood oriented, but really we wouldn't want EVERYONE to be into Tekes, right? Who cares if someone does not like their look. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," right. But I do think that the breed needs some performance promotion. I'd like to pursue endurance riding and dressage with an AT. We see AT's at the Tevis Cup, but with such famed endurance as I've read about I think we need to see some winning at the famous President's Cup in Dubai! So what do you think Leonid? You send me a strong horse, and I'll represent in Dubai! (I am teasing... no cultural misunderstandings please).
As for more breed education... my only advice... bug people. I know this sounds funny, but I am serious. No one is more responsible for your education (or lack thereof) than you. When Jessica had her open house my husband and daughter and I went and picked her and Todd's brain about breed lines, influential stallions, the politics of MAAK, their long-term goals, etc. and I still have so much to learn! If I could invite myself over more often I would. (Hide the Lakrits Te, Jessica!)
My point is that feeling victimized by your situation (even if a little justified) gets you nowhere but angry, and nothing comes of this. Trust me, it is hard to work your way up, and I can appreciate where you're coming from. I do not come from money or even horse people. My first horse job as a kid came because I lied that I had experience. This seems irresponsible now, but I may never have had all the wonderful opportunities that came my way. By college I had a live-in gig at a warmblood facility and got to handle stallions, breeding, marketing, management, etc. So where would I be without being a little pushy now and then?
So jump in! Email Leonid and ask why he recommends this stallion, and what specifically he dislikes about yours. If you don't like what you hear, forget about it, but takes what's useful and grow, cause everyone here has the same goal - to see the AT breed continue to improve and expand.

37. Darya10/04/2006 16:35:27
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you, Heather, it is nice to see some understanding here finally. Your words are very encouraging. This is exactly why I'm more interested in the beauty and the breed being exotic, alongside sporting achievements, as there are so many good sport horses in the world, and plenty in UK, I think there should be something special and different about the breed. One of the reasons I have gotten my stallion as well is for showing him and develop some sport career for him. I do not want to say that he will be an Olympic winner, but one has got to give people a chance. If we do achieve something, that will all be the better for the breed. I know my mare has got wonderful bloodlines, but I'm very limited with what I can do with a 7yo broodmare, that has not been backed. I'm not trying to get everyone to love the breed, but to get people interested, I need to be out there showing off and participating in competitions. The stallion is much more suited for that work. The breeding business and breeding goals are all very important, but in countries like UK we face the challange of promoting the breed as well, and this is the big concearn. I fully understand, that incorrect promotion, as well as bad breeding, can cause serious damage to the interest in the breed, and I do take this all very seriously. May be that is why this has turned into a bit of an unpleasant situation. Breeders like me face so many challanges, like educating ourselves and learning to promote the breed and all this art of breeding. I really wish there was more support and encouragement for us. You never know, there could be even some improvement than.

I did not wish to have become insulting to anyone, I do my best to stay polite. If I have failed in that, I am sorry.

I felt very warm, when I read about your youth. This is very familiar to me, as I was sorting my own life out since I was 16.

Thank you very much once again.

38. Nadja10/04/2006 17:47:42
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/

Darya.
<br>&lt;br&gt;If you will interest Karakajsu, ask me about him. My friend (French) has asked me to buy for her a stallion. And I have bought for her Karakajsu, choosing from many offered stallions of line Posman. Leonid was mistaken. He is not son of Gajgysyz. He is the son of Lamart. He is the grandson of Gajgysyz.
<br>&lt;br&gt;Also do not listen to anybody. Do, how you want. There are no 100 % improving stallions. From each stallion (even the best) are born not typical and simple horses. And sometimes from very very much an average stallion are born magnificent horses from different mares. It is a lot of such examples.
<br>&lt;br&gt;I think idiocy to pay 30000-80000 euros for a two-year-old horse. Or for five years old. The horse, who is able nothing in sports and has no children. But in the some studfarm is such practice. And they successfully sell horses under such prices. Though these horses are is far from the best of Russia or the World. And the best horses of Russia (World champions and Russia) have been sold in due time for lower prices. The main on such expensive sales is a good marketing. And still main, even the worse horse to praise, as something unusually good, super typical, etc. Surprisingly, but this rule works not only in Russia and Europe, but now and in America too.
<br>&lt;br&gt;Fortunately, I never had question: horses or money. To find for a horse the good house, for me it is more important, than to receive money. And I am happy, that my horses - not toys for "rich" persons.

39. Leonid10/05/2006 01:25:51
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Bravo, I have not words. Proletarians of all countries unite!

40. Darya10/05/2006 02:40:59
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you very much Nadja, it is very nice of you to stick your head out for me, as you can see, it is very dangerous to do that sort of thing in this blog. That is the main reason for my confusion, as I see sons from same horses being completely different and I can't stop wondering, whether breeders really know, what is going to come out, or is it just try and see and a little bit of prediction. I would certainly like to know, what other good stallions are in the area, as I would like to try the mare with different stallions over time. It is encouraging, because looking at the related horses to my mare, they all seem to be very nice horses, a lot of them are elite and nicely valued, so this bloodline of hers seems to be very good at producing lovely offspring.

Leonid, you really need to learn to be polite, and than educate people, as people do not learn, when you are being abusive. Although, you can not teach an old dog new tricks, as they say here.

41. Leonid10/05/2006 02:49:05
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Darya, forget my name.

42. Darya10/05/2006 03:45:34
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

with pleasure

43. Jessica10/05/2006 08:15:04

Darya,
Breeding horses is not like baking cookies, there are no recipe that you can follow that will automatically give you a certain type of horse. If you really want to enjoy the wonderful art and science of breeding horses I would warmly recommend you to educate yourself on basic genetics and to look for a mentor that has a long experience in breeding horses. The mentor does not have to work with the same breed, it is even better to look for someone who works with other breeds, that will give you an insight in how other breed associations work as well.
The more you know about breeding the more interesting and fun it is! I also think that in order to really enjoy or be able to contribute to discussions on breeding one must have an understanding about concepts such as selection, improvement, evaluation, breeding goals, breeding plans, genes, hereditability, traits.
If you seriously want to promote the Teke breed, you will encounter a lot of horse people, many of them with a lot of experience and knowledge about breeding, raising and training horses, if you cannot, in a professional way, speak for your product, in your case the stallion you are offering to the public for breeding as well as the service as broker of Tekes you will get a much harder time than you have had on this blog. The horse world is very competetive and I think the best word of advice I can give you at the moment is to get to know your horses, to study the European/English market of Tekes and other breeds that are comparable to the Teke breed. I have also been a young enthusiastic horse girl who wanted a lot of things with my horses and my riding, I must say that I have been very lucky to always been in the hands of very wise and experienced but also very strict mentors. I do hope you can take this as a good advice and that you continue to read this blog as some of the content here is educational.
You have to be prepared for that not everyone loves your stallion like you do. If horse breeding was about following a given recipe maybe it would be so but it is not.
If you want my or others advice you can turn this dialogue to a more constructive and educational by telling me what you think your stallion's strong points and weak points are and for what kind of mares you would recommend him. Also tell me what more about his pedigree in the first three generations, what have the parents done, are they improvers and in if so what did they improve?
These are questions you will get from mare owners this spring if you advertise your stallion for breeding, so let's get you prepared for those questions now.
In the meantime I will make a list of the more than 20 Teke stallions in Europe that are of the same quality or above your stallion. Some of the have a known BV and some of them like your stallion will have an EBV based on their pedigree, siblings, etc.

44. Jessica 10/05/2006 10:29:45

Nadya,
You describe perfectly the, for at least me, the schizofrene situation within this breed based on an chaotic mix of of breeding ideologies and home made recipes for breed success on the paper.
The ideology that you should breed everything as you never know what everything might produce, is mixed with an totally unpredictable "judging system" performed by 1 (one) person where the breeding value classification, height over withers etc is changing faster than you can travel in a rollercoaster.
This at the same time as every horse with a paper from MAAK really has the same breeding value (as they are pure bred). This at the same time as when the only requirement (protection of the Teke trademark) is a DNA proof of parentage at the same time every horse that is registered is "inspected" and points are given. These inspection are so "state-of-the-art" that they are performed sometimes from pictures and sometimes from live horses. The owners/breeders are not always aware of that it is done.
And what is more convenient when one realise that we have to many elite graded horses percentagewise in the population you just take out pen paper and eraser and change height-over-the-withers and other points so that the elite gradings can be adjusted.
What a genius that came up with this method, it is both efficient and cheap.
Really in this breed who needs a horse when everything is performed on the paper! Actually a great selling point for the not so rich people that want a horse but cannot afford to feed it!
I'm suprised that not one single person engaged in population genetics in horses in the west has come up with these revolutionary ideas yet.
And, to really make everything more logical and aimed towards creating a super breed, the world championships are held at the same place every year to make sure that only horses from one country in the world can become world champions!
To summarise, if you have a paper you have a Teke, if you have a Teke breed it, because your horse might produce a world champion or elite horse, but make sure that if you want a world champion breed it in Russia.
And if you want an elite horse, be prepared to see its point go up and down and up and down, but, does it really matter, as every Teke has the same potential, so why bother, really.
Let's hope that more breeds adopt these strategies soon though, so that the Teke breed can compete on the same level as other breeds that are run by stupid people who cares for such details as type, conformation, fertility, rideability and temperament, you know unnecessary stuff that no one is interested in anyways.

45. Darya10/05/2006 14:17:58
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Jessica, this is so exciting, I am actually getting some proper advice here, I am very happy. I must say that you have been truly lucky to find good mentors and people to guide you, it is very nice of you to be understanding to others as well.

Now some things you are saying I have thought of before and has started working on. I am researching and reading a lot about breeding and genetics, but this is a long process and I think you will agree, that you never stop learning things like this that are art. In a way it is like learning language, you never stop learning. I am looking at finding someone to help me along with learning. As I mentioned before, there is two big studs next to us (Bucks is very much a horsey county). Well I am planning to invite myself to them and see what I can learn and whether I get kicked out or not. May be there will be someone there willing to teach me a thing or two.

When I just have found this blog, I did take a lot of time and read pretty much all that there is here to read. I did find some things very helpful, while some things seemed to have contradicted each other. Let me just tell you my oppinion on MAAK, without any hard feelings. I perfectly well understand that there are so many problems and agree with that. But knowing how a lot of things work in Russia, talking about them is very unlikely going to get you anywhere. I know in the west they keep on to politicians or government, and things eventually change. Pitifully, it does not work like this in Russia. Mostly there are people who suit themselves, and the rest just have to get along. I was wondering if there is a way to create some unified and widely recognised system and association in the west. People could probably use that system alongside with MAAKs, and it will be clearer for people in the West, what is what. That is the only idea about that issue that I have, I hope you do not mind me sharing.

About my stallion, I can tell you some things straight away, but I will certainly work on finding out as much as I can. My stallion's dam- Djamna, 1993 (Melekush-Dogadka), line Arab, ellite graded, conformation- 8,0, typicalness- 7,9. She was the daughter of Melekush (Muhtar-Kepgir) line Arab, in 1988 he has taken 3 place in one of the exibitions and was highly valued for his typicalness-9.6, conformation 7,0. He has had some very good offspring, like sire Zakhmet out of Zagadka, who is a high class prize winning dressage horse in Russia. His other son is Metman, who has competed in jumping (up to 130cm), taken 1 and 2nd prizes and has participated in endurance (60km). Metman's new owner is Anne Marie Rasch now, by the way. Djamna's grandparent (dam's sire) is Dornazarbek. My stallion's sire, Melezor (Gelishikli2-Dosh2), class 1, line Gelishikli, typicalness- 7,3, conformation- 7,5. He has got good movements, and is a very strong horse, but seem to be just enjoying a stud career, and no sporting achievements :- He has got magnificent Dagestan as his grand sire. I think I need to find out more detail about Dornazarbek and Dagestan, as I remember them being mentioned a lot and lovely pictures, but am not sure what they have actually done and their particular role in breeding. I have noticed that they appear a lot in the top Teke's pedigrees. If someone wants to educate me on that matter, they are welcome. So my Dominik's good points: colour, temperament, movement, soundness, i do like his high set neck with the lovely curve and typical "zatilok". Bad points: no foals yet, no sporting career(which I hope to change), not extremelly typical head (large eyes I think), his sire is not very much known, although there are some good horses in his pedigree as I described before. That's all I can think of straight away. You are welcome to correct me or add coments on, I am still learning. I will not get upset, unless you call him a mule. I do love him, but not blindly. I can not help loving them, but I have to look realistically at them, otherwise I will not get anywhere.

I hope I did not bore you with this novel and you have actually read till the end of it.

46. Jessica 10/05/2006 17:28:19

Nadya or Darya,
I have not been able to confirm the competition results for Zakhmet (dressage) or Metman (130 cm jumping, 60 km endurance) can you please let me know place, date, class and level (local, regional,national or international) and rider for those to horses so that I can add them to performance results as soon as I have them verified.

47. Heather Mahoney10/06/2006 07:41:05

Leonid,
So you are a fan of Karl Marx? While I have the highest respect for you and your contribution to the Akhal-Teke, I would think that mocking other bloggers as Proletarians would be beneath you. I am sincere when I say it must be nice for you to have been born in to the bourgeoisie, but are you suggesting that those of that are middle class and may only ever own two or three Akhal-Tekes, as opposed to entire stud, are less worthy to share int his forum? Do not forget that Gaius Marius AND Cicero were both Plebeians.

48. Leonid10/06/2006 09:51:15
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Heather, I don't remember where are this Gaius Marius and Cicero raced? What results?
Please read it agein:"Fortunately, I never had question: horses or money. To find for a horse the good house, for me it is more important, than to receive money. And I am happy, that my horses - not toys for "rich" persons."
Everybody desides himself who is he.
Certanly, I want and I try do it to sell my akhalteke horses to rich persons, becourse this horses are luxery class goods. This is truth. This is historical fact.

49. 10/06/2006 11:01:37

I am going to have to stick my head out here, guys... I wasn't going to get involved but I think there is a lot of misunderstanding going on. I don't think Leonid called any specific horse a mule! He just made a suggestion as to what he, as a breeder, considers to be a good match for a mare whose pedigree he, as a breeder, holds in great esteem. It was just a free piece of advice. I took it to be a compliment to the mare, not a criticism of Dominic. Darya's choice of the stallion should, of course, be respected. She told me she went to the stud, was offered a different stallion but really liked Dominic and felt he was the horse she wanted to buy. That's very important, since she is the one who will ride him and even if it was partly an emotional decision, it's still a valid one. To be honest, I fail to see a contradiction: it's hardly feasible to take Oinam to France now as she has just arrived in the UK but in time it might become a possibility, provide the owner of Karakaisu is interested. Karakaisu looks impressive to my non-breeder's eye and in any case, trying to use different breeding couples within Europe must be a good thing. After all Stavropol and Shael regularly exchange stallions, so why not in Europe? As to proletarians, this is a cultural reference, Heather, I am struggling to explain it and it's probably not worth it. Some of us have lived in the USSR and there is a baggage which goes with it. Selling horses for a lot of money in Russia is possible at the moment because of the unique economic conditions. It's nothing to do with them having or not having good homes. Not all Shael horses are sold for mega bucks but market is market, and around Moscow at the moment there are some very wealthy people. Being able to sell horses for a lot of money allows breeders to invest in their stud operations and improve the breed. There are lots of horses, not just Teke, sold cheaply who do not end up in good homes. There is no direct connection there.

50. Heather Mahoney10/06/2006 11:25:50

No offense taken, and I think you are very correct on your points. Really I was teasing Leonid a little bit, and only half serious, but I am learning it is best not to try and be funny when you are translating across cultures. I cannot pretend to understand the social system in the former USSR, but here to call someone a Proletarian is to insinuate that they are an uneducated and unintelligent person that must always be a laborer because they are not good for much else. I am sure this is NOT what Leonid was implying, which is why I was pointing out that in ancient Rome, Marius and Cicero (a very famous general and orator) began life as Plebeians - the poor peasant class, but rose to lasting fame through their intellect.
Absolutely you should market your horses to the best class you can, as this is only good for the breed, and con provide critical support for your stud.
In reference to baggage, I can understand this. It is sometimes difficult for me not to be a little prickly about class, as my horse experience, as I said, has come from working for others and started with me mucking stalls in exchange for a few lessons... that's a LOT of stalls for a LITTLE lesson time. You start to feel taken advantage of, and in America we do not have apprenticeships readily available for would-be equestrians. If your parents cannot pay for very expense private lessons, you may never have the opportunity to learn to the quality you desire. This is heartbreaking in a way I cannot express.
Now that I have graduated from college, I am a teacher, and my husband will be starting school to become a college professor. I am looking for a master for professional lessons for the FIRST TIME. I have ridden my whole life, worked horses, worked cows, etc. But at 24 years old, I am only now able to look for professional training that I can provide for myself. It would be nice if opportunity was congruent with intellect and desire, but this is sadly not the case.

51. Darya10/06/2006 12:42:23
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Heather,
Proletarians of all countries- unite! is an old and very well known in Russia slogan communists used to use for their propaganda. This is used a lot nowadays and more intended as a joke/proverb. It is nothing to do with someone being low class and so on.

I thank you very much all of you guys for your concearn on the matter, do not worry, I do my best to learn and I will keep the best things in mind. I still think it is inappropriate for anyone to use offensive words here like mule. As you see, I do not mind criticism/discussion, but I want it to be to the point. Calling a horse a mule does not give me any idea on a horse's particular faults, and therefore, is not educational at all, but only upsetting.

As for horses, I think it is up to the owner to decide who and for how much to sell their horses to, and it is up to the buyer to figure it out, what is worth what. It is their right and responsibility.

52. Heather Mahoney10/06/2006 12:54:58

Darya,
My Latin teacher used to say to our class "It's always a good day when you learn something new" at the beginning of every class. Thank you for sharing perspective on the slogan, as I'm pleased to have learned something new! I had not heard that before in that context, and always appreciate hearing thoughtful explanations from a different cultural/ethnic perspective.
Enjoy your weekend!
Heather

53. Leonid10/06/2006 13:01:52
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

No one time I did not named mull for horse. I said that Darya can breed even donkeys if she wants. It is your right, she can cover Oynam by donkey, or breed donkeys. Maria can confirm my words. I said this after agressia ageinst my advance.
E basta.

54. Maria10/06/2006 13:50:45

Heather, as Darya said: <Proletarians of all countries - Unite!> is an old Soviet slogan. It even goes back to the 3rd International, if I remember right from my Marxism lessons .

Leonid used it because there was a suggestion made that selling horses for a lot of money is, somehow, reprehensible. Bolsheviks regarded anyone with more money than anyone else a class enemy. Communists worldwide still hold the same views. "Money" is a dirty word to a Proletarian.

Plebeian is a different concept. It means low class, uneducated, lack of "breeding" in a human. A nobleman can become a proletarian, but he cannot become a Plebeian. We have a famous politician in England who is born a Lord but is so left-wing you won't believe it. He is the sort who will tell you that we should all be equal and that selling an Akhal-Teke to a "new Russian" is morally wrong.

As to being able to afford good lessons... you are a lucky woman, Heather! I am 44 and it's only now that I feel justified to spend money on myself in this way.

55. Darya10/06/2006 15:08:19
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Donkey- osyol
Mule- ishak

56. Leonid10/07/2006 00:20:30
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Look dictionary.

57. Darya10/07/2006 03:16:17
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Return me the favour, forget me as well.

58. Heather10/08/2006 18:05:26

Maria,
Thank you for the perspective - truly. And really, I shouldn't be spending such money on myself, but I am lucky to have a good husband that thinks I have waited long enough, and should invest in myself... or maybe I just beat him into agreeing with me. I am just teasing. The problem for me currently is there are so many people in the US that claim to teach "dressage" but it is not true classical dressage as you find in Europe primarily. Jessica and I had this conversation a while back. I am looking for training up to haute ecole, and a good master for such discipline is VERY hard to find within any reasonable distance. I willing even to drive over an hour, but even then, training is hard

59. Jessica10/09/2006 12:11:29

Heather,
I'm looking to for good trainers for horses and kids always, it takes time though and the only way to find out if they are what you are looking for is to go and see them. It seems like I have found a good trainer for jumping, he and his wife are from Ireland and has been competing on high level show jumping for many, many years.
I keep my eyes open for good dressage trainers, I will let you know immediately once we find an interesting trainer, maybe we can go and check them out together!

1. Heather11/10/2006 10:37:00

Jessica,
I think he looks very nice still. His butt looks maybe a little high in a couple pictures, but that is so normal for growing youngsters. His movements still look good to me. In the third picture he has a nice straight dressage leg. And in the fourth a good rotated shoulder. He is practicing his half-pass!

2. shael11/10/2006 12:40:58
Homepage: http://shael-teke.com

He is typical grandson of Daghestan. Between grandsons of Daghestan (from Gaysan, Dorkush) may be only Shakhid brighter.

3. maria11/10/2006 15:39:36

might be interesting to see pictures of other grandsons of Daghestan... I like the tracking up on the first picture.

4. Portia Winters 11/10/2006 16:43:03

I think he looks wonderful !!!! But then again I am a little prejudice. Actually his movement in the pictures is very exciting. Yes thas the word for him exciting.

5. Jessica11/13/2006 09:30:29

Thank you all for the comments, Leonid I'm happy to read your input, I saw Shakhid in Moscow 2003 and I remember him as a very nice colt at that time. I haven't seen him since then though. I wonder why there are so few Daghestan grandsons around, Daghestan himself was to me a perfect Teke. Fortunately Dorkush is still in breeding and can produce enough interesting sons to select from I guess. Would you think, judging only from this pictures that a colt like Orion would be considered as a breeding prospect by Russian breeders?
Maria, I will try to find time and look through our archives for pics of Shakhid.
Portia and Heather, yes Orion has improved his movements everyday now and looks mostly like a dressage prospect, with the right rider he will be heavenly.
Heather if you can quickly get back to riding condition and win some dressage classes you might have a sponsor horse for dressage in a few years! But you have to hurry, most people that see Orion immediately starts drooling!

6. Heather11/13/2006 09:55:30

Ha! Yes, after giving birth to Gwynn I am not at my peak physique, but running most days per week is working (even though I am like lazy horses and do not like to run!) I am working on getting some new horse connections. After leaving the sporthorse farm (for numerous reasons) with 28 mares and 6 stallions to play with, it is a little like withdrawl! If anyone in the Florida area needs work and a little cash in exchange for ride time, trust me, I'm your lady! Lots of practice in that department.

But really, Orion is looking great to me (I am joining the droolers)! Keep up the good work.

7. shael11/13/2006 11:38:10
Homepage: http://shael-teke.com

There are a lot of Sires wich are much bedder in russian studs. Orion is very interesting and necessary to look him.

8. Jessica11/13/2006 13:08:33

Leonid, I am looking forward to hear your comments when you see him live in October 2007.
The show is open for all Tekes and Teke lovers, so if you want to meet with Leonid and Alexander Klimuk and/or have your Teke evaluated by these two Teke experts and living legends make sure that you attend, I can guarantee that after such a show, you will have no Teke questions unanswered and your spirits lifted to new dimensions. Updates on the Sunshine Teke Show show will be published soon. We have picked a site and at this point we are looking for sponsors on all levels for this manifestation of the greatest of horse breeds.

9. Jessica11/13/2006 13:37:49

Leonid, I now that there are many, many stallions that are better than Orion in Russia, that is why I ask you, a Russian breeder that I know is an improver not a producer, if you would even consider using a Teke of the Orion quality in Russia. But of course you cannot really answer this question until you have seen the horse live.
Orion is the first Teke that we have bred and now consider using for breeding on some of our mares, for us this is a milestone in our breeding plan, and of course now I have my doubts if I am making the right descision. It feels like we are now trying to stand on our own legs after having relied on Russian breedings from the best stud farms.
Not the best breedings though, I think we belong to the category of (maybe stupid) breeders that enjoy the quest for knowledge as much as trying to, not buy the best, but the right horse to produce the best ourselves, the road is long and sometimes as bumpy as the road to Kruki but we do have a lot of fun.

10. Darya11/13/2006 14:38:47
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

In some pictures he reminds me of my Dominik, may be this is the result of similar pedigrees... I must admit, my ideal type of horse is Dornazarbek/Yulduz type...
I think I should consider going to the Sunshine Teke Show next year, I'll see how far I can tempt my other half...

11. shael11/13/2006 14:42:06
Homepage: http://shael-teke.com

He is very correct, typical. His father was improver. Try to use them. I think he is very relative to most of your mares. If you will put some good doughters from him will be very good. Then possible to sell him and use another (from Posmans).

12. Jessica 11/13/2006 15:22:25

Leonid, exactly, a Gaygysis son or even sonson with a very good dam, would be a perfect choice for the next generation for us. Many of Gaygysis' offspring represents the best of modern Teke breeding, and we need to cross out from the Yulduz blood at that point. Also we need a future sire for our Osman daughters.
But for now we will have to see if Orion himself is an improver and if his offspring will be selected to continue our breeding program. As it looks now we will test breed him next year to Almaz daughters.

13. Jessica11/13/2006 15:27:55

Darya, you are very welcome to the show, I'm sure you can convince your other half to come with you to Florida in October, I know few people that would say no to that!

14. Darya11/13/2006 15:37:47
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you, Jessica, it would certainly be good to get out of wet England that time of year... And meeting all the exciting people and horses!

15. Jessica 11/13/2006 15:49:45

I willl be exciting, the latest additions to the show is Kazakh djigits performing on Tekes. We will have a ball! We've also managed to find a resource for Georgian wine that we will taste soon to approve as the official show wine. Tekes have been racing in Tblisi so there is a connection, I do not know if they still race there though.

16. Heather11/13/2006 20:29:25

Jessica,
This is sounding like more and more fun! We're so excited about it. Darya, I hope you will come. For me, I don't know if it is I or my husband that is more excited about this event, so we will certainly both be there.

17. Heather11/13/2006 20:34:41

Forgot to ask: Any ball park figure on how many horses have signed up to attend yet, or how many you're anticipating? I am looking forward to seeing horses from a variety of facilities.

18. shael11/14/2006 00:51:04
Homepage: http://shael-teke.com

Forgot Daghestanian cogniac.

19. Darya11/14/2006 03:08:25
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Gosh, I will be very upset now, if I can not come. Let's hope I will, but with recent events I might have to attend to my pregnant mare... In any case, I should know for sure in a next couple of months, what is what... I really hope I can come.

20. Jessica11/14/2006 08:29:42

Yes, Daghestani cognac is a must, do you think you can find a sponsor, I think this type of cognac could be a smash hit on the US market and why not introduce it with the Teke breed. Very exotic, very exclusive.
I am looking for the vodka sponsor to, so I cannot say yet what brand we will offer.

21. Darya11/14/2006 08:56:00
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

It is a good idea, cognac in US, they sell Russian beer here in Tesco's (biggest supermarket chain), called Baltika (St Petersburgh). It can be interesting to try and import more products from Russia & CIS. Good luck with the sponsors!

22. Hans-Jurg Buss11/14/2006 11:11:41

Jessica, I normally hate to make comments about a horse based on pictures only. Pictures may be so misleading, a bad horse but a good photographer, or a good horse but a bad photographer... And I did not study the pedigree of Orion nor that of the prospective mares. But from what I see I would very much encourage you to go on. Movements in picture #1 and #4 seem to be marvelous. On picture #3 it looks as if his neck may be a little bit to short, but on #1 that is totally different, his neck there is beautiful. That's my humble opinion.

23. Tabitha11/22/2006 06:32:30

Jessica,
about your comment in number 12. Why is it necessary to cross out Yulduz? Please lecture me. Because before you said Daghestan (a son of Yulduz) is the perfect Teke in your eyes.

24. Jessica11/22/2006 08:28:38

Hans-Jurg, Thank you for your comments on Orion, I am aware that your comments are valid for the photos only but I still value you comments highly as they come from a true horseman.
Tabitha, by using Orion on our Almaz daughters we concentrate the Yulduz blood via his sons Daghestan and Turali. This we do because we like the look, the performance ability and character of the Yulduz horses as well as the individuals we choose to linebreed on. However at some point in a breeding program you will have to add new blood in order to avoid to close inbreeding that can cause inbreeding depression in your stock. In our breeding program we have a defined look and other traits we breed for, many more stallions than Daghestan in the Teke breed have these features that we still look for in our future horses.
The challengefor us when we look for our outcross stallion is that he must be of exceptional quality as our mares at this point are of such high quality and of such good bloodlines. We do rather not breed than breed if we do not think that the offspring will not be interesting for our breeding goal.

25. Tabitha11/23/2006 08:44:54

Thanks!! That's helpfull information.

1. Heather12/11/2006 10:44:51

They were all lovely! Thank you. But now Swedish Glogg is competing with the Akhal-Tekes for my affection...

2. Jessica D.12/11/2006 13:00:42

Too bad I wasn't in town...I would have loved to go....Id also take Pekhimli home with me! :) She's too cute!! She will make a perfect hunter!

3. maria12/11/2006 16:04:06

WONDERFUL!

4. Portia 12/14/2006 16:43:05

The GIRLS look great but I have to vote for PEggy Sue. THank you guys the party was loads of fun. The Tekes were very hospitable and tolerated us X-mas celebrators with patience. Hey I think they enjoyed all the attention.

1. Leonid03/26/2007 22:39:39
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

This measure is realy surprize for me.

2. Jessica03/27/2007 07:45:12

Which measure, the mane, the height or the cannon bone?

3. Leonid03/27/2007 08:39:24
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Both.

4. maria03/27/2007 09:19:27

I am humbled! But does Pekhimli eat cabbage? THERE is a challenge for you!

5. Tabitha03/27/2007 10:26:55

And now a picture!
I've seen several photo's of AT's growing back manes that stand up now.. that's a nice "proof" that the ancient images/statues of what we assume AT's with upright manes could be correct, or isn't it? It would just have been AT's with once shaved manes.

6. Jessica03/27/2007 10:33:05

Leonid, Almaz' offspring have, with two exceptions, been taller than both their mother and father, he is a size improver eventhough he is small himself. The combinations Alma - Almaz are bigger than Alma- Osman eventhough Osman was much taller than Almaz.

Unfortunately info like this is not published by the stud book for all breeders to read and consider. To me it is ridiculous and proof of amateurism to give a stallion that was elite graded at the size of 155 cm (and recommended for breeding together with among others Piyada) retroactive class 1 due to his size when he repeatedly increase size and bone in his offspring, two traits that the breed management claim they want to improve in the breed.

But like most of us know, it is not the horses that are graded, it is the owners, that is why the Teke breed is what it is today.
My strong recommendation to every prospective buyer is to look and feel the horse, forget the paperwork from Russia, it will not help you in the real horse world where people have eyes to see with.

I am also convinced that the phenotype is as much affected by genes as by the environment.

7. Jessica03/27/2007 10:38:00

Maria, do not distract us with cabbage talk now
You challenged us and now we want to know how long Mualim's mane is in cm! Maybe you will feel better if I tell you that Astra who has a more typical Teke silky mane did not grow near as long upstanding mane as Pekhimli does.

8. ANNE-MARIE03/27/2007 11:16:49
Homepage: http://FREEDOMRUNFARM.COM

If you are up to another contestant I will measure Salam's mane tonight. I was hoping for it to grow and lay down so I could braid it for dressage, but now I am begining to think genetics will have it standing at attention instead. At least all my mares manes are laying flat after growing all winter.

9. Jessica03/27/2007 12:17:14

Yes, this challenge is open to every Teke in the world!
Please add measurements tonight. Fortunately with Pekhimli her mane can be braided at this point.

10. Jessica03/27/2007 12:18:45

Tabitha, good point with the standing manes and ancient art of Teke ancestors!

11. Darya03/27/2007 16:10:30
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I was hoping to let Dominik's mane grow and fall, but after a while gave up and shaved it off cos he looked like a fjord. I did not measure it, but it must have been around 10cm. Oinam's fell very quickly, but hers is very sparse and feels almost like human hair, very fine and silky.

12. Tabitha03/28/2007 04:58:02

Yes, well.. after you mentioned these high manes I started to think about that. That's something that always puzzled me.
That's why pictures of AT's with 'Fjord' manes would be really nice to have so you can compare the nowadays Teke with those ancient images.
At the Akhalt-Service website there's a picture of their stallion Monument (under Sport horses) with such manes. Now a picture of Pekhimli, Salam and Mualim (too bad Dominik is already shaved again) and you would have a nice number of different AT's to compare.

13. maria03/28/2007 08:23:49

I am pulling out of the contest: the competition is too stiff!

14. Jessica03/28/2007 09:34:22

Darya, next time you let the mane grow out, measure it and let us know how tall it grows!
Tabitha, I don't know about the pictures of Pekhimli with fjord mane, it is far from flattering. We'll see.
Maria, aren't we punny! Well, there will be other challenges that maybe you and cream puff can win

15. Darya03/28/2007 16:06:09
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I might attempt long mane again next winter, have to look pretty for the shows so he will continue to have his mane cut for summer. Question: is the mane that is a bit to one side, but still not flat down, counts? His was starting to fall, but was still a long way and I gave up, specially after a farrier called him a pony. Last time farrier came he said: oh, you've had your hair cut, young man!

16. Anne-Marie03/28/2007 20:12:00
Homepage: http://freedomrunfarm.com

Ok, Salam's mane is 11cm but shows no sign of a lean. I will work on the picture part but I am a little busy getting ready to leave for a cruise this weekend, picture may have to waite untill I get back on April 9th. I say we continue the contest untill the first mane falls to the side, are you up to the challange Jessica?

17. Jessica03/29/2007 14:28:42

Anne-Marie, I'll have to pull Peggy out of the challenge on Friday when she has to be braided. I will take last measurement right before she is braided but I doubt it will have grown anything the last few days. So now you have the chance to win!
The reason we're pulling out is that the mane probably will come down a little bit to the side after she has been braided, it normally does.
Would the mane, against all odds bounce back to be erect again once the braids have been removed I hope I can re-enter the challenge.

18. maria03/30/2007 07:25:52

Mualim's uncompetitive mane can be seen on Darya's website: http://www.avatstud.com/Mualim.html I think it shows my lack of hairdressing skills more than anything... Mualim's appearance is hardly enhanced by a sticky mane. As far as AT type goes, he can be described as "round" more than "long", he really benefits from a clean-shaven look.

1. shael10/12/2006 12:09:26
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

http://www.konevodstvo.ru/Tur/miting_05/P1290195.jpg
Garant
http://www.konevodstvo.ru/Tur/miting_05/P1290257.jpg
http://www.konevodstvo.ru/Tur/miting_05/P1290192.jpg
http://www.konevodstvo.ru/Tur/miting_05/P1290163.jpg
http://www.konevodstvo.ru/Tur/miting_05/P1290168.jpg
http://www.konevodstvo.ru/Tur/miting_05/P1290167.jpg

2. Darya10/12/2006 14:28:45
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

hmmmm I think you would have to go up to the horse and use the tape measure to tell wich one has got longer legs and neck. Look very similar, don't they? Maybe that description needs updating...

3. Hans-Jurg Buss10/12/2006 17:21:41

They look very similar, of course. All three are champion Akhal Tekes, all three are black and all three are stallions. But ... But there is a great, great difference ... The neck, the back, the "kruppe" (I do not know the english word), the overall expression.

4. Nadja10/12/2006 17:44:02
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

I agree with that conformations differ in croup. Gazyr it is absolutely not similar to himself in this photo. There are his more successful photos. Garant is very typical horse without a bridle. The bridle simplifies his head.
For me - Gazyr one of examples of a fine combination of conformation and type.
Garant
http://www.akhalt-service.ru/images/pics/garant01.jpg
http://www.akhalt-service.ru/images/pics/garant02.jpg
http://www.akhalt-service.ru/images/pics/garant03.jpg
Gazyr
http://www.akhalt-service.ru/images/pics/gazyr01.jpg
http://www.akhalt-service.ru/images/pics/gazyr02.jpg

5. Darya10/13/2006 03:06:22
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

What lovely pictures, thank you Nadja. I have taken much better liking to Garant after seeing those pictures. I was saying that they are similar when referring to length of neck and legs. That was the question anyways.

6. Jessica 10/13/2006 09:17:08

Hans-Jürg, I can understand you are hesitant and feel that there is a tangible difference between the stallions. One of them is a warmblood. He is approved by the Swedish Warmblood studbook and has the famous Florentin stallion line on his paternal side.
What I wanted to illustrate with the three black stallions is that the modern warmblood is selected for a noble, long legged elegant look. I think that quite many warmbloods are more noble and elegant than some Tekes.
Like I have said before, Tekes in the west enter a very competetive market with tons of super quality noble and elegant horses. No type-conformation - world championship monopoly can change that.

7. Nathalie10/16/2006 16:03:58

you mean that the second stallion is a warmblood ? in the akhal teke breed there are horses who looks like warmblood , that's a reality ! And when I see Absent, even if he had an elegant type, for me he has not the akhal teke look. I'm sure that the russian did selection of horses with warmblood conformation and type in the 20th century. The want to have an akhal teke who can compet with warmblood horses. But with this aim, we're going to loose the akhal teke breed. That's my opinion.

8. Jessica 10/17/2006 08:27:09

The second stallion is First Wish a warmblood. And yes yesterday and today the goal from the Russian state and many breeders is to make the Akhal-Teke a competetive breed for the sport horse market.
However, it is not necessarily the same as the goal is to make them into warmbloods.
I would like to look at it the other way around, if you follow the inspections and development of the breeding goals for the successful sport horse (horses that are bred and trained for elite level competetion) producing studbooks, you can see that the type of horse they are breeding for today, is actually more similar to the ideal Teke, a horse with longer legs than the depth of the chest, a long high carried neck, longer pasterns and a lively and fast (electric) temperament. In the 70's the typical warmblood had short front legs, low carried neck a heavy type and a docile temperament.
So the warmblood studbooks that have a very efficent way of reaching the breeding goals for the population are actually coming closer to the Teke breed type much faster than the Teke breed is improving its sport horse capacity and overall quality (because we are not testing the population for temperament,rideability, gaits etc). With high selection pressure and motivated breeders as the warmblood studbooks have they might even produce better Tekes than we do if they decided to. Interestingly enough is that the type of horse that was created by Central Asian equestrians thousands of years ago have traits that are very sought after today in sport horse breeding. Let's show the sport horse world the real high quality, typical, well raised Tekes (not the failed warmblood look alikes that spent their first years in starvation camp) under talented riders and see what happens! Maybe the Tekes will set the standard for the sport horse in the future.

9. Hans-Jurg Buss10/17/2006 17:32:03

Jessica, now I understand the intention of your first comment with the three fotos. In fact I could hardly believe that the second one was an Akhal Teke. But I thought you used the picture to demonstrate that the actual breeding goals in Russia tend to produce warmblood like Tekes! And my comment was - slightly ironically - accordingly. Judging from fotos only is always difficult. But I am glad to see after reviewing and your comments that I was right at first sight: there is a great, great difference. And that is what makes us Teke lovers hope, as you explained in your last comment.

10. Steffie10/22/2006 07:17:57

I don't know if anyone else has seen this but I found video of Absent on Youtube. Not very long but lovely to watch.

http://youtube.com/results?search_query=Filatow

11. Hans-Jurg Buss10/22/2006 09:45:18

Thank you Steffie for this link. Does anyone know of other videos of Absent?

12. Todd Keith10/22/2006 10:41:16
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/

Here is another.
http://www.karakumstud.com/absent.mpeg

13. Blanca10/23/2006 12:40:23

Thanks a lot Steffie, for this video, that I didn't know.

Does anybody know how much did he get for his passage and piaffe in Rome?

Todd, I can't open your link

1. Blanca03/30/2006 07:52:11

Happy to learn that Almaz is staying in Europe. We need quality stallions here

1. Todd Keith09/28/2005 14:15:45
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/

WOW 4 time international champion of the breed!
The time we saw him in Moscow he was placed 10th of 10 stallions.
http://www.maakcenter.org/ENG/Moscow2001/showres.html
Someone is blowing some smoke......
Todd

2. Allegra Steck09/28/2005 14:57:25

I myself enjoyed the comment about him being the first purebred A-T born on North American soil. This reminds me of the whoppers I find on SIM game sites, which generally have me rolling on the floor laughing. Someone forgot to do their fact-checking !

3. Jessica 09/28/2005 19:54:08

I am not laughing. To hear such stories from people that have visited Akhal-Teke breeders in NA is no fun at all. Obviously the breeder/owner her/himself had been lied to or the blogger that reviews the visit was been lied to. This is not a SIM game this is reality about the competition amongst breeders. A more open and professionally managed breed association national and international would make sure that facts about breeding stallions were easy to check.

4. Lisa Belhage09/30/2005 02:03:40

There is also a less sinister possibility. Since we have no idea the age of the blogger, she (I'm assuming it is a "she") could also very well simply be mistaken in her facts. Perhaps she didn't listen to the facts, couldn't really remember them right, or simply made them up to sounds more impressive.

I don't think there is automatically a need to assign a dishonest/evil motive.

-Lisa

5. Petra10/05/2005 09:35:26
Homepage: http://www.mujweb.cz/www/akhalteke

I agree with Lisa, it could be just a lack of information or not correctly interpreted information.
Despite the fact he was 10 ot 10 in breeding show, he won the riding competition for young horses (judging gaits).

6. Jessica 10/06/2005 11:00:42

I wonder what the blogger, that actually went to the stud farm to buy a horse there, misunderstood, was it fact that;
The stallion was a pure bred Akhal-Teke, that he was the only approved stallion in Canada, that there are only three approved stallions in NA, that he was imported from Russia, that he was 4 times international champion, that there was an Akhal-Teke mare called Gulddjahan imported from Russia, that there was a Teke-Irish draft cross that was the only of the kind in the world, that the foal Spidey was the only pure bred AT foal born on NA soil.

7. Beth10/20/2005 04:39:10

BE AWARE !!!! Just to let anybody know. These Ahal-Teke Horses plus papers, plus a few more horses where stolen from another farm in Alberta while the actual owner was abroad. Then the current "owner" desided to breed them, and be aware of her, she is a big liar. So donīt buy any horses from her, they are not hers! She currently is involved a court battle with the real owner of the horses. She is in big trouble. I know this for a fact. PLEASE LET ANYBODY KNOW!!

8. Beth10/20/2005 04:44:46

PS: I am sure the blogger who visited her farm has no idea. She was probably lied to.

9. Beth10/20/2005 05:04:41

PPS: PETRA - you actually have the link to this persons website on your homepage...so be aware....

10. Beth10/20/2005 06:05:19

PPS: ... and so do you (b)Allegra Steck(b/), you have the same link to this person on your website.... be aware... despite what she might tell you....

11. Jessica 10/20/2005 10:25:17

Beth, this sounds like very serious accusations against the owner of Murgab. If they are true it is good that people are warned but if not they can seriously hurt the owner. I do hope that this blog will increase the transparency within the breed but if you accuse people of stealing or lying I think I will have to ask you at least for your email address so that we can contact you. Another suggestion is that you ask the owners you imply had the horses stolen from them , to add a comment here to verify your comments.

12. Beth10/20/2005 14:22:16

Since this is in court right now, i do not want to get involved since it might hurt the real owner. But i think people should know, since the end up having to give back the horse they bought at the end of the legal battle . I am very close to the owner, thatīs why i know lots about it. But he bought the horses himself in Russia. The mare and the stud. I donīt know how to proof to you that i am telling the truth. The only thing i can tell you is that the woman who sold the horses to him in Russia was visiting us a couple of weeks ago. And i have been following this for almost a year and it just drives me crazy how she can get away with it so far.... but not for much longer i hope.
I donīt want to leave my email - for all i know she could be reading this - and we are not supposed to discuss this out of court. Ask me anything...if i can somehow proof i am telling the truth, i will. But i donīt want to reveal to much about myself just yet. But i will ask him to put a blog in, i donīt know if he will... I will talk to him and find out how we can proof it to you guys .......

OK... he just gave me something.

Calgary Court - Alberta - Canada

On August 17. Justice Peter Martin granted an order restraining her from advertising, selling or moving the horses or any activity for commercial gain.

13. Ganna10/21/2005 04:10:53
Homepage: http://www.golden-horses.net

These horses were bought from us, I'm aware about the today situation, but I think that we should let the court make its decision and do not discuss things.
Regarding the other blog - to me it looks like written by very young people, unexperienced with the AT breed. It can not be considered as reliable information by any adult person, especially by an AT breeder..
Some correct info about Murgab from first hands - he was #10 in Moscow 2001 among young stallions, usually there are more than 10 good horses in a ring, so being awarded a diploma of III digree is not too bad. He was #1 at the competition among young horses for the quality of movements.

Ganna

14. Beth10/21/2005 07:14:43

GANNA IS RIGHT, the horses were bought from her and we should leave it at that. But since that person is still advertising the horses while she is legally not supposed to (we keep finding ads all over the net).. makes you feel helpless and ...makes the owner very worried that she might find a buyer and sell them, and they could end up anywhere.
BUT i also think people should be aware of it, if they are thinking of purchasing an AT from her.
BTW: GANNA that other girl is a friend of this person who right now has a Irish Sport Horse on lease from her which also belongs rightfully to the owner of the two ATs. So, god knows what she is been telling her.
O.K. we will leave it at that now. This was just a big FYI for everyone looking for a AT to buy in Canada or the US.
GANNA: I really like your buckskin mare.
FYI ido have the permission from the owner to write all this - he has seen the blog