read this blog it is so interesting and educational and so right http://www.sustainabledressage.com

1. Blanca02/20/2007 11:15:04

Itīs an excellent site, spacially famous for its views on the rollkur.
They had been forced to withdraw pictures/names of riders practicing it...

2. Darya02/20/2007 16:08:04
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Yes, I read it a couple of months ago and found it very interesting, specially the part about nosebands and bits. I'm glad you mentioned it on the blog here.
Wouldn't call myself a natural horsewoman (horsemanshiper), but I like to make things easier for my horse (and myself in the end too). What Blanca rightly called common sence is a good thing to use too. As far as I know most "Natural" people wouldn't work with a stallion anyways. Which is perfectly understandable cos even mine kiss-loving stallion sometimes needs a little "reminder".

3. maria02/21/2007 05:52:23

Darya, actually, "natural people" do work with stallions. It's only Parelli people (who belong to a particularly dogmatic organisation) who don't. Monty Roberts's most favourite horse was a quarter-horse stallion and he often refers to handling TB colts in his books. He emphasises the need for right equipment and right training facilities, as well as the right frame of mind in the handler.

4. Darya02/21/2007 06:59:07
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Maria, I wasn't sure about all natural people, that's why I wrote "most". May be not the best wording though.. I've done some research into parelli and watched a few videos. I need to research Monty more, and see what useful things I can extract from there. Wish there were more hours in a day...
I come across a "are you mad?" reaction from most horse people here (including my vet) when I say I go hacking my stallion on a busy ish road. The impression I get is that a stallion is thought to be a wild animal you can't handle. And on the other hand I see people doing amazing things with AT stallions, and stallions in general. Why would someone want to breed from a wild horse anyways? I know some of it to do with handling & management too. This is pretty much going back to the gender topic, isn't it?

5. Blanca02/21/2007 08:28:27

Darya, don■t pay any attention to this people. I■m at present doing things with my stallion which I would never have dreamt of doing, like going to the forest with a thick sprenger aurigan bit.

And this is a stallion which has been riden most of his life -he■s 17 now- with bridles and strong bits in order to control him and make him bent his neck properly And, by the way, I think this is the first time he sees a forest and is ridden out of an arena.

It■s obvious that one needs to be careful with certain things but the question of stallions is a question of education.

Concerning courses on natural horsemanship, it■s true I have not been allowed to take Ardon with me, but it■s logical, you■re working together with other horses who might be mares with just halters in an indoors manege, so it■s a matter of security.

Maria, I■m now curious: why Parelli rejects stallions? Is he the famous whisperer who castrates when they■re 10 days old?

6. Heather02/21/2007 10:44:01

I would have to agree on the stallion issue. I do not really understand the hype. Of course there are natural precautions that you take, and maybe even more careful attention, but I'm at a loss with the idea that a stallion cannot be hacked or handled or enjoy all the acitivies any other horse enjoys.
The sportshorse facility where I lived and was barn manager all through college kept six stallions, and all of them were handled extensively daily, did not have to be sedated for sheath cleaning, and went hacking with mares. I think it is all about respecting their natural dispositions, but enforcing certain expectations of manners. My boys were made to walk through the hall of 28 mares every day on their way to paddock and were gently but firmly corrected if they tried to "sweet talk" or impress the ladies. They can learn to be gentleman, and still be breeders. Teasing was done in a specific location, so they knew when showing off a little was allowed and when not. I don't understand the "crazy wild stallion" mentality. Requires a some experience and extra attention - yes. Requires penal lockdown - no.

7. maria02/21/2007 11:07:46

Blanca, Pat Parelli is, indeed, the "natural" who castrates his colts at 10 days old. I have an article by him which was sent to me by a local Parelli "disciple - trainee" after I approached her for private lessons. I also was happy to accept that taking a stallion to a clinic may not be acceptable or safe, but I thought they would come out and do a private lesson at my place. No chance! Parelli organisation is as autocratic as they come. It is a mix of a totalitarian state and a religious cult. Everything is regulated, graded, prescribed to the letter... Yet, I must admit, they do sometimes achieve very impressive results. However, the followers of the less-dogmatic "natural" gurus also achieve results. At the French show - remember, Blanca? - there were people who show-jumped with an aladja around the horse's neck and no bridle at all. I thought it was WONDERFUL. Inspiring. I am not entirely sure if they were Parelli or not. Parelli is trying to get into college programmes in France. Here, in the UK, they tried and failed. The British don't take well to dogma. Mind you, I am not sure if the French like any dogma other than their own. Alchak (Shaar-Al-Depel) might be going to be trained by those people who jumped without bridle at the French show, whereas Shunnan and Gidchi might be going to Harras to be trained. It will be interesting to compare the results!

8. maria02/21/2007 11:18:56

I am delighted to hear that Ardosha has discovered Forest Walks in his twilight years! And in a thick sprenger bit - my goodness, life doesn't get much better after that, does it? As to what all the hype is about with stallions, I agree with you all, BUT - after Mualim attacked me twice last week, I am busy writing a new set of rules to regulate our "relationship", and if he doesn't sign on the dotted line, he will go straight to an AI centre and then to the vet's. I am hopeful that this will not be necessary, but stallion owners should not get too complacent. Different stallions, of course, have different personalities and their level of training must make a huge difference to their beaviour. But there is a natural, biological aggression in a stallion, which places huge responsibility on the handler. The need to have instant reactions, to be fair and consistent is important with any horse but paramount with a stallion. I find it demands the level of self-discipline from me which I don't normally possess. It is a challenge, precisely because so much of it is SELF-discipline. I will post now the Parelli article on stallions - but don't let it put you off!

9. maria02/21/2007 11:21:08

Author’s Note: Please know that my program is designed to teach people to teach their horses. I want you to know how good you are and to be savvy about when things are over your head. Safety is #1, and until you are Level 4, I have concerns about your safety with a stallion. The solution, therefore, is to put your stallion aside and get your savvy level up first... and remember, good stallions make great geldings. I once saw a woman killed by a stallion. He bit her throat and ripped her esophagus out. I know another person whose two fingers were snapped off and all the tendons from his forearm were torn out. I have known people who were picked up by the shoulder, or by the belly, in the jaws of a stallion. I myself have been picked up and dragged on two different occasions. One stallion in California lives in a maze of pens that funnel him into the breeding shed so no one has to handle him. All his teeth have been removed. Another stallion, one of the top thoroughbred sires in the world, was so vicious only one person could handle him. Anyone else entering his stall or paddock had to be protected by someone with a pitchfork. At top establishments around the world, breeding barns look like torture chambers, equipped with chains, whips, hobbles, helmets and flak jackets. Yet every year, every breeding season, people are still hurt, maimed, or killed by stallions. What does this tell you about the potential perils of owning a stallion? In a fight, even a grizzly bear is no match for a stallion. Most people who’ve been on the unhappy end of a stallion will tell you they never saw him coming... the next thing they knew, they were in his jaws. Some of you may think I’m exaggerating. All too often, stallion owners think, "It won’t happen to me." Let me tell you, I’d rather have you mad at me for saying this, than to hear a report of your tragedy. Stallions are magnificent, awe-inspiring creatures. They demand a whole new level of savvy. A stallion’s job is to procreate and to fight for dominance. He lets nothing stand in his way. Stallions will even fight to the death for dominance. When a stallion’s libido is aroused, he becomes a superhorse. He has more strength, more fight, more bravery, more desire and more determination than ever. His hormones are like rocket fuel. Mixed with adrenaline, testosterone amplifies potential tenfold. Recently, a student asked me why some stallions seem pretty mellow compared to others. Aren’t these a lot safer and easier to handle? Yes, in some situations, but not all. That’s the kind of stallion who ripped out his owner’s throat. For example, take a mild-mannered husband who’s out with his wife. Everyone knows this man to be a friendly, reasonable, amicable kind of guy. Never seen him get mean or mad. In fact, wouldn’t even think he had it in him. Until the moment some guy gets inappropriate with his wife. Then, watch out! This mild-mannered man turns into a tornado. He’s on the fight, ready to defend and protect his woman. There’s nothing "left brain" or logical about this; it’s totally right brain, or instinctual. In that moment, he’s liable to do anything. His adrenaline is up, and he’s become a superman. With a stallion, everything can be fine until: He’s faced with mares. You get in his way. You challenge his dominance, even using the Seven Games. It’s true that some stallions have a higher libido than others. For the most part, this is innate. But health and upbringing can affect behavior as well. A poorly fed horse, for instance, will have less energy and less desire than a fit horse on full feed and feeling great. I have often seen thin, wormy, listless stallions that turn into fire-breathing dragons once their health is restored. Upbringing is another influential factor. Let’s consider the ways a young stallion might be raised: with other mares and geldings, with other stallions, or in solitary confinement. A number of scenarios can have a bearing on his behavior. I have found that the more unnatural the environment, the more perverted the behavior. Many stallions are kept isolated from other horses. Often, they’re petted and handled by people who are unfamiliar with natural ways of creating respectful relationships. They are handled aggressively, punished for excitable behavior, restrained with chains over their noses or gums, kept on a tight rein. I liken his to men in jail, whose behavior rarely improves in prison; instead, it becomes more perverted. Stallions crave contact with other horses, so isolation only worsens their behavior. Unable to do their jobs, segregated stallions become extremely pent-up. Then, when exposed to other horses, they exhibit extreme aggression and become very difficult to handle. Think of it from the stallion’s point of view. Kept in solitary confinement, you have no social contact, not enough exercise, and not nearly enough mental and emotional stimulation. Naked "girls" are led past your stall every day. You become very frustrated and bored. Then, you are taken to the breeding barn. When you’re led out of your stall, how are you going to act? You know exactly when you are going and what will happen, so you get excited and start prancing. The mare is hobbled and twitched, and all you do is take a flying leap onto her back. No introductions, no friendly chit-chat, no foreplay, no rebuffs from the mare for rough or rude behavior. In my opinion, this is controlled rape. Stallions treated like this are taught to be rapists. On the other hand, when stallions are raised with other horses, they learn to become polite. If they’re rude, a pair of teeth or heels quickly come their way. You must understand the horse’s psyche and herd behavior, and with a stallion, you need a truckload of savvy. You must know how to earn his respect without using violence. You must read situations very quickly and stay one step ahead of what he’s thinking, all the time. This is why handling stallions is a Level 4 study. You should be at least a Level 3 graduate. You need to be a Bruce Lee of horsemanship, to be Kung Fu, which means excellent - mentally, emotionally and physically. Stallions demand Savvy... You’ve seen him; you might even own one... the young stud who playfully nips at you all the time. It’s probably the question I’m most often asked; "How should I deal with this?" First of all, nipping is disrespectful behavior. A nipping horse is playing games: the Porcupine Game, to be exact; and he’s usually winning them. If he can sneak in, take a nip, and then duck away, he’s having a ball. Just watch young horses playing together. You’ll see this exact same nip, recoil and duck pattern. It’s even better if he can make you mad, more points for him! The answer for this horse, however, is not punishment. It’s the same as for any horse with this behavior. That’s why you need enough savvy to win the Seven Games, especially the Porcupine Game, and without your horse feeling like a loser. If you earn a horse’s respect, he will not play those games on you. But you can’t gain a horse’s respect through punishment. Not only does it cure the problem, it can come back to haunt you on a bad day, and on a bad day a stallion can be your worst nightmare. Very few stallions are excellent breeding quality. Far too many people keep a stallion because they don’t have the heart to geld him. Yet, the stallion goes on to live a life of frustration. Instead of breeding several times a day during the breeding season, he’s allowed one or two servings a year, if he’s lucky. And yet all his hormonal and instinctual drives are still there. Without enough outlet for his libido, you’ll have a very frustrated or depressed stallion on your hands, with potentially serious consequences. I geld my colts within the first two weeks of birth. After that, the testicles may be difficult to locate, and the next thing you know your yearling has a raging torrent of hormones coursing through his growing body. Some people are concerned that early gelding will affect a horse’s growth and performance, but in my experience, this is not true. Many of my geldings were castrated at ten days old, and they’ve grown into stout, handsome horses. Don’t keep your colt a stallion. There are thousands of stallions around who should have been gelded because of poor conformation, bloodlines or personality. They weaken the gene pool and are walking liabilities for their owners. When your horse is a stallion, you can never relax. Stallions handled by people with a great deal of savvy are exceptions. The Spanish Riding School and the great Fredy Knie (of the Circus Knie in Switzerland) are two outstanding examples. Both use stallions exclusively in their performances because of that "something extra" in stallions. In the right hands, this is truly spectacular. Their stallions are respectful and fulfilled. I repeat, fulfilled. This is probably the part that most people underestimate the most. Owning a stallion is not just about handling his behavior; it’s about considering his life-style and needs, too. After all, natural horsemen always think about things from the horse’s point of view first. Put yourself in a stallion’s shoes.

10. maria02/21/2007 11:35:56

Funny how time changes one's point of view... I was sent this article when I first got Mualim and he was a bit of a nightmare. It really scared me and I seriously considered gelding him there and then. But then I decided to give it a go, things got better and I never read the article again. Now, 2 years into having a stallion around, I read this article and find little with which I can disagree...

11. Heather02/21/2007 12:13:08

I understand his point in needing some experience and a lot of awareness to handle a stallion. All true. But removing a stallion's teeth and "funneling" him around so as not to be handled??? People like that are not examples of why stallions shouldn't be kept in general, they're examples of animal abusers! I think the upbringing does have a substantial impact on behavior, but he seems to believe that a stallion is simply bound to "turn" on you one day, with no warnings or motivation. That is rubbish. I was injured by two of the stallions I was responsible for in college, and both times is was due to something stupid on my part, where I should have been paying better attention, and wasn't. That doesn't make them "wild and unpredictable." It just reiterates the need for extra caution, and as Maria said, SELF-discipline.

I did not know much at all about Parelli before this, but I must say I have a pretty negative opinion after reading that. He might get results, but so do a lot of people, without employing scare tactics.

12. Blanca02/21/2007 14:00:25

Hmmm, I must say that Parelli has a point in his article.

He describes a certain kind of stallions whom is not so unfrequent to find: isolated, not exercising, just serving mares in the breedind period, handled exclusively by frightened grooms using a chifney, etc, etc

But this a very partial vision. I■ve seen many stallions who are not like this.

A stallion needs exercise and keeping his mind busy. definitely, you need to be careful, always in alert, and ready to correct any gesture aiming at controlling you. Maybe I was lucky because I haven■t educated my stalion but others have done it for me, but I doubt that a stallion well handled, kept and with a good exercise programme will ever become as Parelli describes.

Having said so, I can add that after all I■ve learnt, if I could have had Ardon as a colt, I■d have had castrated him, after some days in the AI clinic. He would have had a much easier and pleasant
life...

You■re right, Parelli is an institution in France...because besides his methodology, he■s an excellent marketer...they■re everywhere, they manage to constantly be in magazines, articles, exhibitions and fairs, and, as you said, now you can get a kind of official vocational training school diploma if you follow his courses. "His" person in France, Andy Boots, took care of a French olimpic dressage horse (Calimucho) because he had the mania of panicking too much after the end of the reprise, when th public starts clapping. Well, this is typical of many dressage horses but it seems that Boots had good results...

I■ve heard very good things of him but also many bad ones...I guess that, as everything in horses, you need to take it with a grain of salt, and you can benefit even from Fillis teachings if you do it with this spirit...

And...yes, Maria, I think Ardosha is having a happy life now, after so many years of "serious" training with "serious" Russian and German trainers...you should come to ride him

13. Darya02/21/2007 16:51:27
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I definitely agree that the stallion handling is a very special job and self discipline and the right training for the stallion are important. Natural horsemanship is interesting and things like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc are very inspiring to watch. I like to see what tricks they can offer to make everyday life more pleasant for both me and my horses.

I agree stallions are managed in a bad way very often and I find it distressing to see as it is animal abuse really. Mine was taught to go out grazing with a mare but can be taken away any time. My mare taught him to mind his manners too and he knows there are no jokes to be played with me. I can stand for as long as I like with my back to him and he never dare nip or bite. I taught him to wait while his food is being served. Basics like this make him understand what kind of behavour is expected of him and helps in all other activities. He is still a little bit of a baby and likes to play and likes human contact a lot. He is learning where he can and can't play too. We go out hacking on the road and see many cars and even buses and lorries. We go over bridges and through a village, past different things and he is not afraid of any of them and is getting really brave now. The next big thing for him to learn now is to behave when we meet horses. He is fine with horses that are being ridden, but he often gets too excited when he sees other horses in the fields and they come running to him. So this is our next big task. In total he trusts me, respects me, but is not scared of me and enjoys my company, so I think we are on the right track..

I often hear these scare stories about stallions but then they never tell you what the owner/handler did right before it happened. Quite often people make silly mistakes, and often do not even realise that. Horses forgive people so many horrible things, but the truth with the stallion is that they generally are not as forgiving so bad attacks happen.

I was talking to my vet and she expressed same opinion that people are known for breeding rubbish just because they can not do anything else with that horse (not only stallions, mares too). Many accidents happen too because people do not castrate just because they feel sorry for the horse. I think that contributes to bad reputation and comments like "are you mad"? If I can't do all them everyday things with my stallion that people do with other horses, there will be an appointment for the vet. That's exactly what I told her too.

Nice to hear you are doing well with Ardon, Blanca and thank you for encouraging words.

Best,

Darya

14. Jessica02/22/2007 08:39:33

I think Pat Parelli is mixing apples and pears in his article and also that the ranting and repetitions drowns his message a bit. However, he is right about the people that get maimed by their stallions, they did not see it coming and they did not think it would happen to them. This is again a reminder that horses are unpredictable and working with horses is to constantly foresee their actions to prevent them from injuring themselves or you.
I never turn my back to a stallion and every day is a new day with any stallion no matter how much you have trained them, they will always look for a way to get you, that's my mental state of mind with stallions.
I think that with todays increasting testing and showing of stallions the ones that are to agressive with the lack of rideability are culled and therefore we get more stallions out showing that can cooperate and work with people without being to agressive, on the other hand though, the high performance horses are selected for a high level of deed power, therefore especially trotters and racers are very aggressive because they need the aggression to fight hard and win.
Once these stallions end up as breeding animals they look forward to a very harsh life as they will continue fighting.
With our breed hopefully we look for continuing the tradition of breeding horses that are more compatible with humans than any other breed, therefore we should be careful in the choice of stallions for breeding, the ones that are to aggressive to humans I do not think should be bred, they do not do anything good to for the breed. Again, we need more to evaluate and report the character and mentality of the Teke stallions offered to the public for breeding.
About collecting and freezing AI of a stallion and then castrate, I think it creates a lot of suspicion to offer such semen, I myself would immediately suspect bad mentality or soundness issues if I was offered semen from a gelding.

15. maria02/22/2007 12:20:42

Jessica, I want to take up the comment you made: "I never turn my back to a stallion". This is exactly the difficulty I am experiencing with Mualim. I go into the sand school and I have to close the gate behind me, so inevitably I have to turn my back to him for a few seconds. This is when he thinks he can attack me - stupid git! What's your advice? Do I always need someone with me to close the gate? Should I try and change the way the gate is hung, so that I can close it from the saddle? Or do I learn to close gates without looking?

16. Jessica02/22/2007 12:43:07

I can think about some suggestions you would get from other people on how to solve your problem;
Todd Keith: install a remote control, gate or horse doesn't matter
Pat Parelli: castrate the stallion
Monty Roberts: join up!
Borat: leave the horse on the other side of the gate when you close it so that he cannot get to you!
Dr Gadget: add built-in rear mirrors to the helmet
Mr Redneck: tie you lasso around the mouth and feet of the horse
The Classical dressage rider: ask him kindly not to bite and eventually he will give it to you
The Natural people: immediately remove shoes, bits, saddle, gate, fence and arena.

17. Heather02/22/2007 13:25:57

Hahahahahaha! I cannot even tell you what a laugh that gave me! I think I woke up Gwynn!

18. Darya02/22/2007 15:03:14
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

sooooo funny, brilliant!
This is exactly my point, at this point or the other in everyday life I face situations were I have to turn my back on Dom. I can do it safely now, he tried to playfuly bite but soon learnt that he will feel my boot hitting his leg and stopped. He respects me to the point now were I just raise my finger to his nose and he backs off. Never hit him very hard though, it's more the fact than the pain that gets him normally. Isn't it what horses do in the herd to establish their relationships? He seems to understand that language very well.. Mulik is different temperament though and much more dominant and I know I would have to work much harder to get him to that stage. I thank god each day that I chose Dominik for his character and temperament.

19. Jessica02/22/2007 15:21:02

Darya, most maimed stallion owners didn't see it coming, because they thought they had their stallions under control and turned their back to them. No matter if you have a stallion that lacks a little bit in the stallion character, the drive to dominate, or not, I still would not turn my back to any stallion.
In a herd Mualim would probably kill Dominik and breed all the mares, the mares also tend to select a strong and dominant stallion. Dominant is not the same as bad character, it is what you call sex character and what you want to see in stallions.

20. Darya02/22/2007 15:38:33
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

He knows what to do with the mare, and if my mare hasn't killed him yet, than I'm sure Mualim would have the hard time trying. My stallion is sweet and good tempered, but he is still very much a stallion. I never fully turn my back on him carelessly. It's hard to explain it, but you kind of grow eyes on your back after a while. I used to go to karate classes when I was a kid, that taught me to never fully concentrate your attention on one particular thing, but to rather scan your surrounding using not only your vision, but hearing as well. Also working in busy factories around machinery not less dangerous, than a stallion, makes you develop certain qualities and plenty of self discipline, control and attention to many things at once. I'm not saying that any of this is my 100% warranty against an accident, but having bought my horses I realise the risk. Things like this I normally consider before, not after, and accept.
This is a difference in human selection, isn't it, that it is different from the nature, and fierce stallions are breeding instead of people friendly in the nature. But horses are not being ridden in the nature in the wild too.

21. Jessica D.02/23/2007 00:13:48

Since we are on the topic of "Natural" training. I found this video that is pretty incredible and thought you all would like to see it. The guy who is doing it seems to be using some form of natural horsemanship to train his horses :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHaEzGz0HeE&mode=related&search=

This one is also interesting :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9_mdwvU1Gc

The trainer that I have the most respect for is Clinton Anderson though. Ive found his teaching to be very good and based on common sense. Just putting in my 2 cents ;)

22. Darya02/23/2007 05:19:30
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I read an article about Nevzorov a while ago and was quite astonished. In that article I remember he said that he works with the horses from very young for the reason that he needs a horse that was never touched by a whip (hit), he said if that was done even once, the horse will remember and the muscles will never relax. I can't remember wether he works with stallions, or not. I think he has got his inspiration from some people in France, although I might not remember that correctly.

And that flying French man, well, that's a different way of getting from A to B on a horse!

23. Darya02/23/2007 06:23:12
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I've been reading through his web (well, his wife's) and found out that he does work with stallions a lot, and there is an interesting interview he gave about leadership and relationship he establishes with horses. He actually doesn't like a lot of NH people (Parelli in particular). Unfortunately it is in Russian and there is no Eng version. I will try and translate it tonight and post it here. It is a very different approach and very interesting.

24. maria02/23/2007 07:00:29

Jessica, there was nobody in the house to wake up in my case, but you must have heard me laugh across the Atlantic! We have had rain, rain and nothing but rain for days. Our normally dry farm is soaking wet, Mualim can't go to his big field for a gallop anymore, so he just waddles up and down the lane and builds up dominance for when I get back from work. Last night I had to lunge him in the school after dark (with flood light and puddles and it was still raining and wind was howling) and, my goodness, I have never seen a horse go so fast. It's not right to let a horse race in a sand school but right now, we have little choice. He cantered and cantered and cantered and splashed and splashed. But the difference in him afterwards was just amazing. And he was a lamb to ride this morning. And we are getting shoes next Tuesday, if my unreliable farrier turns up - more than he did last Monday. I have now tried barefoot and Old Mac boots and it just doesn't work with this particular horse (no offence to barefoot people!). The front hooves wear off too quickly on the tarmac, and the boots are starting to run the delicate Teke skin, and the absolute last thing I want in this weather is mud fever.

25. Heather02/23/2007 08:35:21

Darya,
I am looking forward to your article translation. It sounds interesting. I am certainly far down the line from being any sort of expert, but some of these guys just make me wonder where they're coming from. Of course, all of them have some very good points - else, they would not be so successful - but most of them just seem to be on one side of an issue, rather than taking everything into consideration, and making practical suggestions that apply to 90% of people trying to imrpove their horses, or their relationship with their horses.
I must admit also, that while my initial reaction to the Parelli was to feel it was rubbish, I must also consider that while I worked daily with 6 stallions and 1 colt of various breeds, temperments, and levels of natural dominance, they were - save one - already trained, and required only maintanance and continued handling on my part. And while Jessica is absolutely right about the inherent risks with stallions, there have also been days I found them easier to get along with than the mares!

26. Darya02/23/2007 11:00:31
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Ok, here is the quick translation of what Nevzorov said in an interview when he was asked the question about leadership. The direct link from where I am translating is: http://www.haute-ecole.ru/ru/faq.php question number 660.

"I think the impression of my leadership is incorrect. The reason for this mistake is a very fashionable and extremelly stupid idea that is well spread around Europe and America nowadays. The idea of a man being an "alfa- horse", a dominant type of horse. One should regard the horse as a complete idiot to think that it can mistake a human for a horse even for a single second.

No the horse NEVER regards a human as another horse. It can clearly see and realise all the visual differences. The relationship between the horse and the human are built in a completely different manner, than a relationship between two horses.

Yes, there are some external similarities, that remind the "horse to horse" communication (for example, the readiness for grooming each other, some sounds and movements), but this only happens because the horse has a standard set of emotional expressions and is using it. But this doesn't mean anything. The relationship in principle is completely different. We also use in our communication with horses standard "sets" that we use for communicating with other people (voice, petting, whistle, gestures and so on), but this doesn't mean that we take a horse for a human.

So I consider the theory of a human as a dominant horse very stupid in principle.

Different types of NH (Natural Horsemanship) tell us a lot about leadership, but in reality from the very first minutes the horse is being taught (brainwashed), that the more stupid and passive the horse behaves, the more comfortable it gets. "Leadership" in NH is based only on the man purposefully training the horse stupidity, demonstrating how beneficial is the position of total indifference and sleepyness.

The horse is incredibly intellegent and very quickly perverted in the hands of an experienced NH. It agrees with the suggested model of behaviour. But this is only training. It is possible to train the horse the stupidity and indifference, just as well as the spanish walk, for example. The horse very quickly learns the lessons of indifference and apathy, which are so called "games". NH as a rule agree to the full indifference, and a person waving their sticks and ropes next to an indifferent horse looks very much in charge to a novice. But this is all a pure lie.

The point is that "games" in NH are created with a really good knowledge of horse psycology. During the games there is nothing asked of a horse which would require a lot of effort. This creates a big impression. Very few understand, that the horse agrees to be indifferent and passive till the minute something is asked of it that would cause a great deal of discomfort. For example, carrying a rider on their back, or elements of dressage, even the very basic ones.

As soon as such are asked, the "leaders" are forced to put their equipment on a horse- a pretty harsh equipment that consists of fine ropes and knots, which cuts into the horse's nose. So in reality they switch to the usual "control with the pain", which is no different from the one accepted in sports. If the rider wants something even more complicated, they switch to even stronger pain control methods designed to influence the nerves of the horse's head with the help of "iron". What has "leadership" got to do with that? If it was in the games, were did it disappear when the things got more complicated? So when I build my relationship with a horse- I'm not a "leader". I don't play this false game. To pretend to be a "horse", to pretend to be a "leader", "herd stallion"?!.. And who to pretend for? To pretend for a horse that definitely knows that I'm not a horse? This is funny nonsence!

More than that I purposefully try not to dominate, not to implement power. And I have to take a great care not to do it. I know perfectly well that power is a tasty morsel, and any healthy and powerful horse will fight for it (and any other creature) when the possibility arrives. The one who wants to be a "leader" should realise that any leader can be overthrown, in the case they get a little weaker at some point. Such disposition is no good for a very delicate and complicated work in the school. The more so that I work with very strong, hot, energetic and spirited horses. With stallions in particular who have a natural lust for power and get a great deal of joy out of conflicts. They naturally have a wish to fight for power. If you show them your power, you will definitely get the fight for it. More so I do not aim to have or want power over the horse. All that is requiered from a man is to be absolutely understandable to the horse."

27. Darya02/23/2007 11:02:36
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

What do you think of that? The man totally refuses any control with the pain and any bits or bridles, even the bitless ones. I find it hard to disagree with what he says in that interview though. He really made me think.

28. Leonid02/23/2007 11:51:16
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

This person is zero and liar. He wants to create image of great horsehumanist, but his real face is dirty. He create terrorit sect of childs with banner of love to horses, and they attack sport clubs, hippodromes.

29. Heather02/23/2007 12:01:39

Overall, I think he has some excellent points, and look forward to hearing what those of you with much more experience than me have to say about it. The only thing I question a little bit - and this from a scientific background - is the horse not seeing you as a horse. I'm not saying he is not correct to some extend, but there are numerous animal behavior studies wherein animals integrate humans into their "natural world concept" because that is their frame of reference. (Examples: cranes, gorillas, chimps, wolves, falcons, etc.)
Again, I have some mixed opinions. I agree that horses are very intelligent and see the physical difference between horse and human, but I do not know that they know to apply a different set of "rules" in terms of communication and understanding to you. Like Darya explaining that Dom has learned that if he thinks of nipping, he will feel her boot on his legs... this communication is no different that a mare kicking him in a herd, and he understands her through his "horse" language. I don't know. I think I am not wise enough to expound on this for very long, but it was really a thought provoking article, and I appreciate the translation, Darya!

30. Heather02/23/2007 12:04:19

Leonid,
We were posting simultaneously I think, so I did not read your post before mine. Have there truly been attacks on clubs and race tracks???
Darya,
Is Nevzorov promoting a training ideology, or is he against utilitarian and/or pleasurable usage of horses in general??

31. m02/23/2007 12:23:38

Oh my... I have just looked at the website of this Nevzorov. Uzhas! I stydno i strashno. Ideology has truly many guises. Parelli is one and this guy is another. I also don't really like the way his horses move on that video on mytube - very jerky movements. Call me old-fashioned but I prefer The Spanish Riding School.

32. Jessica D.02/23/2007 12:28:00

I think he is against the use of horses in sport type events and stuff bc he thinks it makes the horse degraded...put on show for the enjoyment of people and not natural to the horse at all.

I am curious though how he gets the horses to do what they did in the video I posted...without the use of normal training aids...how do you DO that?? How do you handle a horse who just refuses to do what you want it to for the sole reason to be obstinate without using some kind of force? (like smacking the horse on the rump if it tries to kick at you etc).

33. Leonid02/23/2007 12:59:00
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

This is theatre. Backstage this horses have preparing of normal masters.

34. Darya02/23/2007 14:26:20
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I've no idea to what is behind these people, if anything, I just found this article an interesting reading, so I thought I translate it for you. From reading other bits I figured he doesn't like any horse sports and any what they call abuse of horse, which includes any type of bit or bridle or headcollar even and a hard use of whip etc etc. There seems to be a following for him and he has got some strong views and critisizes a lot of people, so I guess he has got a lot of enemies. I've no idea to be honest, I just like collecting bits of information and make up my own mind on whichever is the best way for my horse. I like learning.
I'm not going to go riding my stallion without the bridle tomorrow of course.

35. Leonid02/23/2007 14:52:32
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

It's possible to be enemy of somebody, but this crook is nothing, zero.

36. maria02/26/2007 10:45:26

Two things relating to this thread... Mualim has learned in the last few days not to attack me when I close the gate. He now stands respectfully 5 feet away. I just had to teach him to do it. You do wonder why I didn't teach him before, don't you? So do I... Secondly, I had a lesson on a dressage school master and was told to let go of the reins during collected canter. Trainer said: "If the horse is balanced, he should be able to carry himself in an outline without any contact on the reins. And you get he did! He didn't move his head even a millimetre - I could have been riding without the bridle! He is Grand-Prix trainer 20-year-old French TB.

37. Jessica02/26/2007 14:42:23

I recommend to read a book by the Sue McDonnell a horse behaviourist from New Bolton Center, University of Pennsylvania, she is a no nonsense, well educated, interested person to listen to and her book is very much the same.
"Understand Horse Behaviour" by Sue McDonnell PhD is published by The Blood Horse Inc ISBN 1-58150-017-3
www.bloodhorse.com
The first step in horse - human communication is to understand how horses and humans communicate and realise the similarities and differences.
Did you for know that the horse has a second sensory organ for smell called the vomeronasal organ that is sensitive to pheromones? In other words, smells, that we do not control, plays a big role in animal communication.

38. Jessica02/26/2007 15:43:01

I recommend to read a book by the Sue McDonnell a horse behaviourist from New Bolton Center, University of Pennsylvania, she is a no nonsense, well educated, interested person to listen to and her book is very much the same. <br>"Understand Horse Behaviour" by Sue McDonnell PhD is published by The Blood Horse Inc ISBN 1-58150-017-3<br>www.bloodhorse.com <br>The first step in horse - human communication is to understand how horses and humans communicate and realise the similarities and differences. <br>Did you for know that the horse has a second sensory organ for smell called the vomeronasal organ that is sensitive to pheromones? In other words, smells, that we do not control, plays a big role in animal communication. <br>

39. Carolyn02/27/2007 22:37:35

It is amazing how far back the whole idea of 'natural horsemanship' goes, even though it was not called that at the time. Xenophon (brilliant man!) in his Art of Horsemanship from the 4thc BCE writes 'For what the horse does under compulsion, as Simon also observes, is done without understanding; and there is no beauty in it either, any more than if one should whip and spur a dancer. There would be a great deal more ungracefulness than beauty in either a horse or a man that was so treated. No, he should show off all his finest and most brilliant performances willingly and at a mere sign.' (Horsemanship XI)
Keeping in mind that the Greeks always rode stallions. Gelding was not a common practice in ancient Greece, it was rather frowned on actually. Alexander the Great and his Macedonian cavalry achieved amazing things on their war stallions by using natural herd behaviour (or at least that I what I argue in my research! )
It is true that Xenophon does recommend the use of some truly frightening bits, but he also says that the rider should use a loose rein.
He also writes: If you desire to handle a good war horse so as to make his action the more magnificent and striking, you must refrain from pulling at his mouth with the bit as well as from spurring and whipping him. Most people thinnk that this is the way to make him look fine; but they only produce an effect contrary to what they desire- they positively blind their horses by jerking the mouth up instead of letting them look forward, and by spurring and striking them into disorder and danger. (X.1)

Just some interesting passages I think.

40. Jessica02/28/2007 15:47:31

I think that the more riding becomes an art, the more the horse becomes a slave, todays riding is more about using the horse as a servant to your needs of expressing yourself, while when the horse was used for work either in war or other tasks they became more like partners.
The more people move and live in towns the more they forget about the methods used for working with horses and the innate knowledge about handling animals the generations of kids that grow up on farms have.
I see more and more the horse used as a tool for boasting your ego by people that have lost their connection to the domesticated animal and the everyday life with them. It is a pity because it is in the every day life with horses you get to know them and respect them the best.
This group of people is a perfect target for the modern horse whisperer. At least they feel better themselves for spending big money on instant understanding of the horse including a nice certificate.

41. Carolyn02/28/2007 23:00:03

Jessica I think I have to agree with you on that one. It was very well put. The more time I spend studying ancient horsemanship and horse cultures, the more I realize how much of a material item the horse has become. These people depended on their horses to survive- they needed to build a level of trust or understanding with them to come out of a battle with their lives. They knew that there was no miracle cure for horses or an over night method of training them.
The horses I am working with live down the road from Spruce Meadows, and they are allowed to live out in pasture in a herd acting like horses, the complete antithesis to their counterparts down the road. For me nothing is quite so much fun as playing around in the field with our 2 year olds or
hacking bareback in the woods. I spent many years working with horses off the track and was increasingly disheartened by the attitudes of some people towards their horses- they were treated like a fashion accessory.
It has been wonderful reading the posts on this page from people who want to work with their horses and build an understanding...not dominate them. If learning horse archery has taught me anything it is the importance of trust between horse and rider, galloping bareback across an open space, the second you drop your reins to draw the bow you need total belief that your horse will listen to your legs and go where you ask it to, or else you may have quite an accident!

42. Mick07/15/2007 01:46:10

I am impressed with the open minds that are attached to this website. I found it by accident, and am glad I did. I have off and on kept stallions for our personal breeding programs. and have had studs who were definate canidates for termination as well as stallions who were well mannered and when they were no longer with us left a definate emptyness and they were missed. I am glad to see that not every one who has had contact with the parelli program has not swallowed it hook line and sinker. Not everyone can be one with the horse and the universe no matter how much liberty is available. There is no doubt that a stallion is a challenge everyday. They can and must be trained to behave so that you and those that handle the horse can do so safely. Also training does not inherintly mean that pain and abuse are the means to an end. However mind over matter and positive thinking should not be replaced with common sense. Thank you for allowing this comment Good luck and stay safe..