read this blog it is so interesting and educational and so right http://www.sustainabledressage.com

1. Blanca02/20/2007 11:15:04

It´s an excellent site, spacially famous for its views on the rollkur.
They had been forced to withdraw pictures/names of riders practicing it...

2. Darya02/20/2007 16:08:04
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Yes, I read it a couple of months ago and found it very interesting, specially the part about nosebands and bits. I'm glad you mentioned it on the blog here.
Wouldn't call myself a natural horsewoman (horsemanshiper), but I like to make things easier for my horse (and myself in the end too). What Blanca rightly called common sence is a good thing to use too. As far as I know most "Natural" people wouldn't work with a stallion anyways. Which is perfectly understandable cos even mine kiss-loving stallion sometimes needs a little "reminder".

3. maria02/21/2007 05:52:23

Darya, actually, "natural people" do work with stallions. It's only Parelli people (who belong to a particularly dogmatic organisation) who don't. Monty Roberts's most favourite horse was a quarter-horse stallion and he often refers to handling TB colts in his books. He emphasises the need for right equipment and right training facilities, as well as the right frame of mind in the handler.

4. Darya02/21/2007 06:59:07
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Maria, I wasn't sure about all natural people, that's why I wrote "most". May be not the best wording though.. I've done some research into parelli and watched a few videos. I need to research Monty more, and see what useful things I can extract from there. Wish there were more hours in a day...
I come across a "are you mad?" reaction from most horse people here (including my vet) when I say I go hacking my stallion on a busy ish road. The impression I get is that a stallion is thought to be a wild animal you can't handle. And on the other hand I see people doing amazing things with AT stallions, and stallions in general. Why would someone want to breed from a wild horse anyways? I know some of it to do with handling & management too. This is pretty much going back to the gender topic, isn't it?

5. Blanca02/21/2007 08:28:27

Darya, don■t pay any attention to this people. I■m at present doing things with my stallion which I would never have dreamt of doing, like going to the forest with a thick sprenger aurigan bit.

And this is a stallion which has been riden most of his life -he■s 17 now- with bridles and strong bits in order to control him and make him bent his neck properly And, by the way, I think this is the first time he sees a forest and is ridden out of an arena.

It■s obvious that one needs to be careful with certain things but the question of stallions is a question of education.

Concerning courses on natural horsemanship, it■s true I have not been allowed to take Ardon with me, but it■s logical, you■re working together with other horses who might be mares with just halters in an indoors manege, so it■s a matter of security.

Maria, I■m now curious: why Parelli rejects stallions? Is he the famous whisperer who castrates when they■re 10 days old?

6. Heather02/21/2007 10:44:01

I would have to agree on the stallion issue. I do not really understand the hype. Of course there are natural precautions that you take, and maybe even more careful attention, but I'm at a loss with the idea that a stallion cannot be hacked or handled or enjoy all the acitivies any other horse enjoys.
The sportshorse facility where I lived and was barn manager all through college kept six stallions, and all of them were handled extensively daily, did not have to be sedated for sheath cleaning, and went hacking with mares. I think it is all about respecting their natural dispositions, but enforcing certain expectations of manners. My boys were made to walk through the hall of 28 mares every day on their way to paddock and were gently but firmly corrected if they tried to "sweet talk" or impress the ladies. They can learn to be gentleman, and still be breeders. Teasing was done in a specific location, so they knew when showing off a little was allowed and when not. I don't understand the "crazy wild stallion" mentality. Requires a some experience and extra attention - yes. Requires penal lockdown - no.

7. maria02/21/2007 11:07:46

Blanca, Pat Parelli is, indeed, the "natural" who castrates his colts at 10 days old. I have an article by him which was sent to me by a local Parelli "disciple - trainee" after I approached her for private lessons. I also was happy to accept that taking a stallion to a clinic may not be acceptable or safe, but I thought they would come out and do a private lesson at my place. No chance! Parelli organisation is as autocratic as they come. It is a mix of a totalitarian state and a religious cult. Everything is regulated, graded, prescribed to the letter... Yet, I must admit, they do sometimes achieve very impressive results. However, the followers of the less-dogmatic "natural" gurus also achieve results. At the French show - remember, Blanca? - there were people who show-jumped with an aladja around the horse's neck and no bridle at all. I thought it was WONDERFUL. Inspiring. I am not entirely sure if they were Parelli or not. Parelli is trying to get into college programmes in France. Here, in the UK, they tried and failed. The British don't take well to dogma. Mind you, I am not sure if the French like any dogma other than their own. Alchak (Shaar-Al-Depel) might be going to be trained by those people who jumped without bridle at the French show, whereas Shunnan and Gidchi might be going to Harras to be trained. It will be interesting to compare the results!

8. maria02/21/2007 11:18:56

I am delighted to hear that Ardosha has discovered Forest Walks in his twilight years! And in a thick sprenger bit - my goodness, life doesn't get much better after that, does it? As to what all the hype is about with stallions, I agree with you all, BUT - after Mualim attacked me twice last week, I am busy writing a new set of rules to regulate our "relationship", and if he doesn't sign on the dotted line, he will go straight to an AI centre and then to the vet's. I am hopeful that this will not be necessary, but stallion owners should not get too complacent. Different stallions, of course, have different personalities and their level of training must make a huge difference to their beaviour. But there is a natural, biological aggression in a stallion, which places huge responsibility on the handler. The need to have instant reactions, to be fair and consistent is important with any horse but paramount with a stallion. I find it demands the level of self-discipline from me which I don't normally possess. It is a challenge, precisely because so much of it is SELF-discipline. I will post now the Parelli article on stallions - but don't let it put you off!

9. maria02/21/2007 11:21:08

Author’s Note: Please know that my program is designed to teach people to teach their horses. I want you to know how good you are and to be savvy about when things are over your head. Safety is #1, and until you are Level 4, I have concerns about your safety with a stallion. The solution, therefore, is to put your stallion aside and get your savvy level up first... and remember, good stallions make great geldings. I once saw a woman killed by a stallion. He bit her throat and ripped her esophagus out. I know another person whose two fingers were snapped off and all the tendons from his forearm were torn out. I have known people who were picked up by the shoulder, or by the belly, in the jaws of a stallion. I myself have been picked up and dragged on two different occasions. One stallion in California lives in a maze of pens that funnel him into the breeding shed so no one has to handle him. All his teeth have been removed. Another stallion, one of the top thoroughbred sires in the world, was so vicious only one person could handle him. Anyone else entering his stall or paddock had to be protected by someone with a pitchfork. At top establishments around the world, breeding barns look like torture chambers, equipped with chains, whips, hobbles, helmets and flak jackets. Yet every year, every breeding season, people are still hurt, maimed, or killed by stallions. What does this tell you about the potential perils of owning a stallion? In a fight, even a grizzly bear is no match for a stallion. Most people who’ve been on the unhappy end of a stallion will tell you they never saw him coming... the next thing they knew, they were in his jaws. Some of you may think I’m exaggerating. All too often, stallion owners think, "It won’t happen to me." Let me tell you, I’d rather have you mad at me for saying this, than to hear a report of your tragedy. Stallions are magnificent, awe-inspiring creatures. They demand a whole new level of savvy. A stallion’s job is to procreate and to fight for dominance. He lets nothing stand in his way. Stallions will even fight to the death for dominance. When a stallion’s libido is aroused, he becomes a superhorse. He has more strength, more fight, more bravery, more desire and more determination than ever. His hormones are like rocket fuel. Mixed with adrenaline, testosterone amplifies potential tenfold. Recently, a student asked me why some stallions seem pretty mellow compared to others. Aren’t these a lot safer and easier to handle? Yes, in some situations, but not all. That’s the kind of stallion who ripped out his owner’s throat. For example, take a mild-mannered husband who’s out with his wife. Everyone knows this man to be a friendly, reasonable, amicable kind of guy. Never seen him get mean or mad. In fact, wouldn’t even think he had it in him. Until the moment some guy gets inappropriate with his wife. Then, watch out! This mild-mannered man turns into a tornado. He’s on the fight, ready to defend and protect his woman. There’s nothing "left brain" or logical about this; it’s totally right brain, or instinctual. In that moment, he’s liable to do anything. His adrenaline is up, and he’s become a superman. With a stallion, everything can be fine until: He’s faced with mares. You get in his way. You challenge his dominance, even using the Seven Games. It’s true that some stallions have a higher libido than others. For the most part, this is innate. But health and upbringing can affect behavior as well. A poorly fed horse, for instance, will have less energy and less desire than a fit horse on full feed and feeling great. I have often seen thin, wormy, listless stallions that turn into fire-breathing dragons once their health is restored. Upbringing is another influential factor. Let’s consider the ways a young stallion might be raised: with other mares and geldings, with other stallions, or in solitary confinement. A number of scenarios can have a bearing on his behavior. I have found that the more unnatural the environment, the more perverted the behavior. Many stallions are kept isolated from other horses. Often, they’re petted and handled by people who are unfamiliar with natural ways of creating respectful relationships. They are handled aggressively, punished for excitable behavior, restrained with chains over their noses or gums, kept on a tight rein. I liken his to men in jail, whose behavior rarely improves in prison; instead, it becomes more perverted. Stallions crave contact with other horses, so isolation only worsens their behavior. Unable to do their jobs, segregated stallions become extremely pent-up. Then, when exposed to other horses, they exhibit extreme aggression and become very difficult to handle. Think of it from the stallion’s point of view. Kept in solitary confinement, you have no social contact, not enough exercise, and not nearly enough mental and emotional stimulation. Naked "girls" are led past your stall every day. You become very frustrated and bored. Then, you are taken to the breeding barn. When you’re led out of your stall, how are you going to act? You know exactly when you are going and what will happen, so you get excited and start prancing. The mare is hobbled and twitched, and all you do is take a flying leap onto her back. No introductions, no friendly chit-chat, no foreplay, no rebuffs from the mare for rough or rude behavior. In my opinion, this is controlled rape. Stallions treated like this are taught to be rapists. On the other hand, when stallions are raised with other horses, they learn to become polite. If they’re rude, a pair of teeth or heels quickly come their way. You must understand the horse’s psyche and herd behavior, and with a stallion, you need a truckload of savvy. You must know how to earn his respect without using violence. You must read situations very quickly and stay one step ahead of what he’s thinking, all the time. This is why handling stallions is a Level 4 study. You should be at least a Level 3 graduate. You need to be a Bruce Lee of horsemanship, to be Kung Fu, which means excellent - mentally, emotionally and physically. Stallions demand Savvy... You’ve seen him; you might even own one... the young stud who playfully nips at you all the time. It’s probably the question I’m most often asked; "How should I deal with this?" First of all, nipping is disrespectful behavior. A nipping horse is playing games: the Porcupine Game, to be exact; and he’s usually winning them. If he can sneak in, take a nip, and then duck away, he’s having a ball. Just watch young horses playing together. You’ll see this exact same nip, recoil and duck pattern. It’s even better if he can make you mad, more points for him! The answer for this horse, however, is not punishment. It’s the same as for any horse with this behavior. That’s why you need enough savvy to win the Seven Games, especially the Porcupine Game, and without your horse feeling like a loser. If you earn a horse’s respect, he will not play those games on you. But you can’t gain a horse’s respect through punishment. Not only does it cure the problem, it can come back to haunt you on a bad day, and on a bad day a stallion can be your worst nightmare. Very few stallions are excellent breeding quality. Far too many people keep a stallion because they don’t have the heart to geld him. Yet, the stallion goes on to live a life of frustration. Instead of breeding several times a day during the breeding season, he’s allowed one or two servings a year, if he’s lucky. And yet all his hormonal and instinctual drives are still there. Without enough outlet for his libido, you’ll have a very frustrated or depressed stallion on your hands, with potentially serious consequences. I geld my colts within the first two weeks of birth. After that, the testicles may be difficult to locate, and the next thing you know your yearling has a raging torrent of hormones coursing through his growing body. Some people are concerned that early gelding will affect a horse’s growth and performance, but in my experience, this is not true. Many of my geldings were castrated at ten days old, and they’ve grown into stout, handsome horses. Don’t keep your colt a stallion. There are thousands of stallions around who should have been gelded because of poor conformation, bloodlines or personality. They weaken the gene pool and are walking liabilities for their owners. When your horse is a stallion, you can never relax. Stallions handled by people with a great deal of savvy are exceptions. The Spanish Riding School and the great Fredy Knie (of the Circus Knie in Switzerland) are two outstanding examples. Both use stallions exclusively in their performances because of that "something extra" in stallions. In the right hands, this is truly spectacular. Their stallions are respectful and fulfilled. I repeat, fulfilled. This is probably the part that most people underestimate the most. Owning a stallion is not just about handling his behavior; it’s about considering his life-style and needs, too. After all, natural horsemen always think about things from the horse’s point of view first. Put yourself in a stallion’s shoes.

10. maria02/21/2007 11:35:56

Funny how time changes one's point of view... I was sent this article when I first got Mualim and he was a bit of a nightmare. It really scared me and I seriously considered gelding him there and then. But then I decided to give it a go, things got better and I never read the article again. Now, 2 years into having a stallion around, I read this article and find little with which I can disagree...

11. Heather02/21/2007 12:13:08

I understand his point in needing some experience and a lot of awareness to handle a stallion. All true. But removing a stallion's teeth and "funneling" him around so as not to be handled??? People like that are not examples of why stallions shouldn't be kept in general, they're examples of animal abusers! I think the upbringing does have a substantial impact on behavior, but he seems to believe that a stallion is simply bound to "turn" on you one day, with no warnings or motivation. That is rubbish. I was injured by two of the stallions I was responsible for in college, and both times is was due to something stupid on my part, where I should have been paying better attention, and wasn't. That doesn't make them "wild and unpredictable." It just reiterates the need for extra caution, and as Maria said, SELF-discipline.

I did not know much at all about Parelli before this, but I must say I have a pretty negative opinion after reading that. He might get results, but so do a lot of people, without employing scare tactics.

12. Blanca02/21/2007 14:00:25

Hmmm, I must say that Parelli has a point in his article.

He describes a certain kind of stallions whom is not so unfrequent to find: isolated, not exercising, just serving mares in the breedind period, handled exclusively by frightened grooms using a chifney, etc, etc

But this a very partial vision. I■ve seen many stallions who are not like this.

A stallion needs exercise and keeping his mind busy. definitely, you need to be careful, always in alert, and ready to correct any gesture aiming at controlling you. Maybe I was lucky because I haven■t educated my stalion but others have done it for me, but I doubt that a stallion well handled, kept and with a good exercise programme will ever become as Parelli describes.

Having said so, I can add that after all I■ve learnt, if I could have had Ardon as a colt, I■d have had castrated him, after some days in the AI clinic. He would have had a much easier and pleasant
life...

You■re right, Parelli is an institution in France...because besides his methodology, he■s an excellent marketer...they■re everywhere, they manage to constantly be in magazines, articles, exhibitions and fairs, and, as you said, now you can get a kind of official vocational training school diploma if you follow his courses. "His" person in France, Andy Boots, took care of a French olimpic dressage horse (Calimucho) because he had the mania of panicking too much after the end of the reprise, when th public starts clapping. Well, this is typical of many dressage horses but it seems that Boots had good results...

I■ve heard very good things of him but also many bad ones...I guess that, as everything in horses, you need to take it with a grain of salt, and you can benefit even from Fillis teachings if you do it with this spirit...

And...yes, Maria, I think Ardosha is having a happy life now, after so many years of "serious" training with "serious" Russian and German trainers...you should come to ride him

13. Darya02/21/2007 16:51:27
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I definitely agree that the stallion handling is a very special job and self discipline and the right training for the stallion are important. Natural horsemanship is interesting and things like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc are very inspiring to watch. I like to see what tricks they can offer to make everyday life more pleasant for both me and my horses.

I agree stallions are managed in a bad way very often and I find it distressing to see as it is animal abuse really. Mine was taught to go out grazing with a mare but can be taken away any time. My mare taught him to mind his manners too and he knows there are no jokes to be played with me. I can stand for as long as I like with my back to him and he never dare nip or bite. I taught him to wait while his food is being served. Basics like this make him understand what kind of behavour is expected of him and helps in all other activities. He is still a little bit of a baby and likes to play and likes human contact a lot. He is learning where he can and can't play too. We go out hacking on the road and see many cars and even buses and lorries. We go over bridges and through a village, past different things and he is not afraid of any of them and is getting really brave now. The next big thing for him to learn now is to behave when we meet horses. He is fine with horses that are being ridden, but he often gets too excited when he sees other horses in the fields and they come running to him. So this is our next big task. In total he trusts me, respects me, but is not scared of me and enjoys my company, so I think we are on the right track..

I often hear these scare stories about stallions but then they never tell you what the owner/handler did right before it happened. Quite often people make silly mistakes, and often do not even realise that. Horses forgive people so many horrible things, but the truth with the stallion is that they generally are not as forgiving so bad attacks happen.

I was talking to my vet and she expressed same opinion that people are known for breeding rubbish just because they can not do anything else with that horse (not only stallions, mares too). Many accidents happen too because people do not castrate just because they feel sorry for the horse. I think that contributes to bad reputation and comments like "are you mad"? If I can't do all them everyday things with my stallion that people do with other horses, there will be an appointment for the vet. That's exactly what I told her too.

Nice to hear you are doing well with Ardon, Blanca and thank you for encouraging words.

Best,

Darya

14. Jessica02/22/2007 08:39:33

I think Pat Parelli is mixing apples and pears in his article and also that the ranting and repetitions drowns his message a bit. However, he is right about the people that get maimed by their stallions, they did not see it coming and they did not think it would happen to them. This is again a reminder that horses are unpredictable and working with horses is to constantly foresee their actions to prevent them from injuring themselves or you.
I never turn my back to a stallion and every day is a new day with any stallion no matter how much you have trained them, they will always look for a way to get you, that's my mental state of mind with stallions.
I think that with todays increasting testing and showing of stallions the ones that are to agressive with the lack of rideability are culled and therefore we get more stallions out showing that can cooperate and work with people without being to agressive, on the other hand though, the high performance horses are selected for a high level of deed power, therefore especially trotters and racers are very aggressive because they need the aggression to fight hard and win.
Once these stallions end up as breeding animals they look forward to a very harsh life as they will continue fighting.
With our breed hopefully we look for continuing the tradition of breeding horses that are more compatible with humans than any other breed, therefore we should be careful in the choice of stallions for breeding, the ones that are to aggressive to humans I do not think should be bred, they do not do anything good to for the breed. Again, we need more to evaluate and report the character and mentality of the Teke stallions offered to the public for breeding.
About collecting and freezing AI of a stallion and then castrate, I think it creates a lot of suspicion to offer such semen, I myself would immediately suspect bad mentality or soundness issues if I was offered semen from a gelding.

15. maria02/22/2007 12:20:42

Jessica, I want to take up the comment you made: "I never turn my back to a stallion". This is exactly the difficulty I am experiencing with Mualim. I go into the sand school and I have to close the gate behind me, so inevitably I have to turn my back to him for a few seconds. This is when he thinks he can attack me - stupid git! What's your advice? Do I always need someone with me to close the gate? Should I try and change the way the gate is hung, so that I can close it from the saddle? Or do I learn to close gates without looking?

16. Jessica02/22/2007 12:43:07

I can think about some suggestions you would get from other people on how to solve your problem;
Todd Keith: install a remote control, gate or horse doesn't matter
Pat Parelli: castrate the stallion
Monty Roberts: join up!
Borat: leave the horse on the other side of the gate when you close it so that he cannot get to you!
Dr Gadget: add built-in rear mirrors to the helmet
Mr Redneck: tie you lasso around the mouth and feet of the horse
The Classical dressage rider: ask him kindly not to bite and eventually he will give it to you
The Natural people: immediately remove shoes, bits, saddle, gate, fence and arena.

17. Heather02/22/2007 13:25:57

Hahahahahaha! I cannot even tell you what a laugh that gave me! I think I woke up Gwynn!

18. Darya02/22/2007 15:03:14
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

sooooo funny, brilliant!
This is exactly my point, at this point or the other in everyday life I face situations were I have to turn my back on Dom. I can do it safely now, he tried to playfuly bite but soon learnt that he will feel my boot hitting his leg and stopped. He respects me to the point now were I just raise my finger to his nose and he backs off. Never hit him very hard though, it's more the fact than the pain that gets him normally. Isn't it what horses do in the herd to establish their relationships? He seems to understand that language very well.. Mulik is different temperament though and much more dominant and I know I would have to work much harder to get him to that stage. I thank god each day that I chose Dominik for his character and temperament.

19. Jessica02/22/2007 15:21:02

Darya, most maimed stallion owners didn't see it coming, because they thought they had their stallions under control and turned their back to them. No matter if you have a stallion that lacks a little bit in the stallion character, the drive to dominate, or not, I still would not turn my back to any stallion.
In a herd Mualim would probably kill Dominik and breed all the mares, the mares also tend to select a strong and dominant stallion. Dominant is not the same as bad character, it is what you call sex character and what you want to see in stallions.

20. Darya02/22/2007 15:38:33
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

He knows what to do with the mare, and if my mare hasn't killed him yet, than I'm sure Mualim would have the hard time trying. My stallion is sweet and good tempered, but he is still very much a stallion. I never fully turn my back on him carelessly. It's hard to explain it, but you kind of grow eyes on your back after a while. I used to go to karate classes when I was a kid, that taught me to never fully concentrate your attention on one particular thing, but to rather scan your surrounding using not only your vision, but hearing as well. Also working in busy factories around machinery not less dangerous, than a stallion, makes you develop certain qualities and plenty of self discipline, control and attention to many things at once. I'm not saying that any of this is my 100% warranty against an accident, but having bought my horses I realise the risk. Things like this I normally consider before, not after, and accept.
This is a difference in human selection, isn't it, that it is different from the nature, and fierce stallions are breeding instead of people friendly in the nature. But horses are not being ridden in the nature in the wild too.

21. Jessica D.02/23/2007 00:13:48

Since we are on the topic of "Natural" training. I found this video that is pretty incredible and thought you all would like to see it. The guy who is doing it seems to be using some form of natural horsemanship to train his horses :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHaEzGz0HeE&mode=related&search=

This one is also interesting :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9_mdwvU1Gc

The trainer that I have the most respect for is Clinton Anderson though. Ive found his teaching to be very good and based on common sense. Just putting in my 2 cents ;)

22. Darya02/23/2007 05:19:30
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I read an article about Nevzorov a while ago and was quite astonished. In that article I remember he said that he works with the horses from very young for the reason that he needs a horse that was never touched by a whip (hit), he said if that was done even once, the horse will remember and the muscles will never relax. I can't remember wether he works with stallions, or not. I think he has got his inspiration from some people in France, although I might not remember that correctly.

And that flying French man, well, that's a different way of getting from A to B on a horse!

23. Darya02/23/2007 06:23:12
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I've been reading through his web (well, his wife's) and found out that he does work with stallions a lot, and there is an interesting interview he gave about leadership and relationship he establishes with horses. He actually doesn't like a lot of NH people (Parelli in particular). Unfortunately it is in Russian and there is no Eng version. I will try and translate it tonight and post it here. It is a very different approach and very interesting.

24. maria02/23/2007 07:00:29

Jessica, there was nobody in the house to wake up in my case, but you must have heard me laugh across the Atlantic! We have had rain, rain and nothing but rain for days. Our normally dry farm is soaking wet, Mualim can't go to his big field for a gallop anymore, so he just waddles up and down the lane and builds up dominance for when I get back from work. Last night I had to lunge him in the school after dark (with flood light and puddles and it was still raining and wind was howling) and, my goodness, I have never seen a horse go so fast. It's not right to let a horse race in a sand school but right now, we have little choice. He cantered and cantered and cantered and splashed and splashed. But the difference in him afterwards was just amazing. And he was a lamb to ride this morning. And we are getting shoes next Tuesday, if my unreliable farrier turns up - more than he did last Monday. I have now tried barefoot and Old Mac boots and it just doesn't work with this particular horse (no offence to barefoot people!). The front hooves wear off too quickly on the tarmac, and the boots are starting to run the delicate Teke skin, and the absolute last thing I want in this weather is mud fever.

25. Heather02/23/2007 08:35:21

Darya,
I am looking forward to your article translation. It sounds interesting. I am certainly far down the line from being any sort of expert, but some of these guys just make me wonder where they're coming from. Of course, all of them have some very good points - else, they would not be so successful - but most of them just seem to be on one side of an issue, rather than taking everything into consideration, and making practical suggestions that apply to 90% of people trying to imrpove their horses, or their relationship with their horses.
I must admit also, that while my initial reaction to the Parelli was to feel it was rubbish, I must also consider that while I worked daily with 6 stallions and 1 colt of various breeds, temperments, and levels of natural dominance, they were - save one - already trained, and required only maintanance and continued handling on my part. And while Jessica is absolutely right about the inherent risks with stallions, there have also been days I found them easier to get along with than the mares!

26. Darya02/23/2007 11:00:31
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Ok, here is the quick translation of what Nevzorov said in an interview when he was asked the question about leadership. The direct link from where I am translating is: http://www.haute-ecole.ru/ru/faq.php question number 660.

"I think the impression of my leadership is incorrect. The reason for this mistake is a very fashionable and extremelly stupid idea that is well spread around Europe and America nowadays. The idea of a man being an "alfa- horse", a dominant type of horse. One should regard the horse as a complete idiot to think that it can mistake a human for a horse even for a single second.

No the horse NEVER regards a human as another horse. It can clearly see and realise all the visual differences. The relationship between the horse and the human are built in a completely different manner, than a relationship between two horses.

Yes, there are some external similarities, that remind the "horse to horse" communication (for example, the readiness for grooming each other, some sounds and movements), but this only happens because the horse has a standard set of emotional expressions and is using it. But this doesn't mean anything. The relationship in principle is completely different. We also use in our communication with horses standard "sets" that we use for communicating with other people (voice, petting, whistle, gestures and so on), but this doesn't mean that we take a horse for a human.

So I consider the theory of a human as a dominant horse very stupid in principle.

Different types of NH (Natural Horsemanship) tell us a lot about leadership, but in reality from the very first minutes the horse is being taught (brainwashed), that the more stupid and passive the horse behaves, the more comfortable it gets. "Leadership" in NH is based only on the man purposefully training the horse stupidity, demonstrating how beneficial is the position of total indifference and sleepyness.

The horse is incredibly intellegent and very quickly perverted in the hands of an experienced NH. It agrees with the suggested model of behaviour. But this is only training. It is possible to train the horse the stupidity and indifference, just as well as the spanish walk, for example. The horse very quickly learns the lessons of indifference and apathy, which are so called "games". NH as a rule agree to the full indifference, and a person waving their sticks and ropes next to an indifferent horse looks very much in charge to a novice. But this is all a pure lie.

The point is that "games" in NH are created with a really good knowledge of horse psycology. During the games there is nothing asked of a horse which would require a lot of effort. This creates a big impression. Very few understand, that the horse agrees to be indifferent and passive till the minute something is asked of it that would cause a great deal of discomfort. For example, carrying a rider on their back, or elements of dressage, even the very basic ones.

As soon as such are asked, the "leaders" are forced to put their equipment on a horse- a pretty harsh equipment that consists of fine ropes and knots, which cuts into the horse's nose. So in reality they switch to the usual "control with the pain", which is no different from the one accepted in sports. If the rider wants something even more complicated, they switch to even stronger pain control methods designed to influence the nerves of the horse's head with the help of "iron". What has "leadership" got to do with that? If it was in the games, were did it disappear when the things got more complicated? So when I build my relationship with a horse- I'm not a "leader". I don't play this false game. To pretend to be a "horse", to pretend to be a "leader", "herd stallion"?!.. And who to pretend for? To pretend for a horse that definitely knows that I'm not a horse? This is funny nonsence!

More than that I purposefully try not to dominate, not to implement power. And I have to take a great care not to do it. I know perfectly well that power is a tasty morsel, and any healthy and powerful horse will fight for it (and any other creature) when the possibility arrives. The one who wants to be a "leader" should realise that any leader can be overthrown, in the case they get a little weaker at some point. Such disposition is no good for a very delicate and complicated work in the school. The more so that I work with very strong, hot, energetic and spirited horses. With stallions in particular who have a natural lust for power and get a great deal of joy out of conflicts. They naturally have a wish to fight for power. If you show them your power, you will definitely get the fight for it. More so I do not aim to have or want power over the horse. All that is requiered from a man is to be absolutely understandable to the horse."

27. Darya02/23/2007 11:02:36
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

What do you think of that? The man totally refuses any control with the pain and any bits or bridles, even the bitless ones. I find it hard to disagree with what he says in that interview though. He really made me think.

28. Leonid02/23/2007 11:51:16
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

This person is zero and liar. He wants to create image of great horsehumanist, but his real face is dirty. He create terrorit sect of childs with banner of love to horses, and they attack sport clubs, hippodromes.

29. Heather02/23/2007 12:01:39

Overall, I think he has some excellent points, and look forward to hearing what those of you with much more experience than me have to say about it. The only thing I question a little bit - and this from a scientific background - is the horse not seeing you as a horse. I'm not saying he is not correct to some extend, but there are numerous animal behavior studies wherein animals integrate humans into their "natural world concept" because that is their frame of reference. (Examples: cranes, gorillas, chimps, wolves, falcons, etc.)
Again, I have some mixed opinions. I agree that horses are very intelligent and see the physical difference between horse and human, but I do not know that they know to apply a different set of "rules" in terms of communication and understanding to you. Like Darya explaining that Dom has learned that if he thinks of nipping, he will feel her boot on his legs... this communication is no different that a mare kicking him in a herd, and he understands her through his "horse" language. I don't know. I think I am not wise enough to expound on this for very long, but it was really a thought provoking article, and I appreciate the translation, Darya!

30. Heather02/23/2007 12:04:19

Leonid,
We were posting simultaneously I think, so I did not read your post before mine. Have there truly been attacks on clubs and race tracks???
Darya,
Is Nevzorov promoting a training ideology, or is he against utilitarian and/or pleasurable usage of horses in general??

31. m02/23/2007 12:23:38

Oh my... I have just looked at the website of this Nevzorov. Uzhas! I stydno i strashno. Ideology has truly many guises. Parelli is one and this guy is another. I also don't really like the way his horses move on that video on mytube - very jerky movements. Call me old-fashioned but I prefer The Spanish Riding School.

32. Jessica D.02/23/2007 12:28:00

I think he is against the use of horses in sport type events and stuff bc he thinks it makes the horse degraded...put on show for the enjoyment of people and not natural to the horse at all.

I am curious though how he gets the horses to do what they did in the video I posted...without the use of normal training aids...how do you DO that?? How do you handle a horse who just refuses to do what you want it to for the sole reason to be obstinate without using some kind of force? (like smacking the horse on the rump if it tries to kick at you etc).

33. Leonid02/23/2007 12:59:00
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

This is theatre. Backstage this horses have preparing of normal masters.

34. Darya02/23/2007 14:26:20
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I've no idea to what is behind these people, if anything, I just found this article an interesting reading, so I thought I translate it for you. From reading other bits I figured he doesn't like any horse sports and any what they call abuse of horse, which includes any type of bit or bridle or headcollar even and a hard use of whip etc etc. There seems to be a following for him and he has got some strong views and critisizes a lot of people, so I guess he has got a lot of enemies. I've no idea to be honest, I just like collecting bits of information and make up my own mind on whichever is the best way for my horse. I like learning.
I'm not going to go riding my stallion without the bridle tomorrow of course.

35. Leonid02/23/2007 14:52:32
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

It's possible to be enemy of somebody, but this crook is nothing, zero.

36. maria02/26/2007 10:45:26

Two things relating to this thread... Mualim has learned in the last few days not to attack me when I close the gate. He now stands respectfully 5 feet away. I just had to teach him to do it. You do wonder why I didn't teach him before, don't you? So do I... Secondly, I had a lesson on a dressage school master and was told to let go of the reins during collected canter. Trainer said: "If the horse is balanced, he should be able to carry himself in an outline without any contact on the reins. And you get he did! He didn't move his head even a millimetre - I could have been riding without the bridle! He is Grand-Prix trainer 20-year-old French TB.

37. Jessica02/26/2007 14:42:23

I recommend to read a book by the Sue McDonnell a horse behaviourist from New Bolton Center, University of Pennsylvania, she is a no nonsense, well educated, interested person to listen to and her book is very much the same.
"Understand Horse Behaviour" by Sue McDonnell PhD is published by The Blood Horse Inc ISBN 1-58150-017-3
www.bloodhorse.com
The first step in horse - human communication is to understand how horses and humans communicate and realise the similarities and differences.
Did you for know that the horse has a second sensory organ for smell called the vomeronasal organ that is sensitive to pheromones? In other words, smells, that we do not control, plays a big role in animal communication.

38. Jessica02/26/2007 15:43:01

I recommend to read a book by the Sue McDonnell a horse behaviourist from New Bolton Center, University of Pennsylvania, she is a no nonsense, well educated, interested person to listen to and her book is very much the same. <br>"Understand Horse Behaviour" by Sue McDonnell PhD is published by The Blood Horse Inc ISBN 1-58150-017-3<br>www.bloodhorse.com <br>The first step in horse - human communication is to understand how horses and humans communicate and realise the similarities and differences. <br>Did you for know that the horse has a second sensory organ for smell called the vomeronasal organ that is sensitive to pheromones? In other words, smells, that we do not control, plays a big role in animal communication. <br>

39. Carolyn02/27/2007 22:37:35

It is amazing how far back the whole idea of 'natural horsemanship' goes, even though it was not called that at the time. Xenophon (brilliant man!) in his Art of Horsemanship from the 4thc BCE writes 'For what the horse does under compulsion, as Simon also observes, is done without understanding; and there is no beauty in it either, any more than if one should whip and spur a dancer. There would be a great deal more ungracefulness than beauty in either a horse or a man that was so treated. No, he should show off all his finest and most brilliant performances willingly and at a mere sign.' (Horsemanship XI)
Keeping in mind that the Greeks always rode stallions. Gelding was not a common practice in ancient Greece, it was rather frowned on actually. Alexander the Great and his Macedonian cavalry achieved amazing things on their war stallions by using natural herd behaviour (or at least that I what I argue in my research! )
It is true that Xenophon does recommend the use of some truly frightening bits, but he also says that the rider should use a loose rein.
He also writes: If you desire to handle a good war horse so as to make his action the more magnificent and striking, you must refrain from pulling at his mouth with the bit as well as from spurring and whipping him. Most people thinnk that this is the way to make him look fine; but they only produce an effect contrary to what they desire- they positively blind their horses by jerking the mouth up instead of letting them look forward, and by spurring and striking them into disorder and danger. (X.1)

Just some interesting passages I think.

40. Jessica02/28/2007 15:47:31

I think that the more riding becomes an art, the more the horse becomes a slave, todays riding is more about using the horse as a servant to your needs of expressing yourself, while when the horse was used for work either in war or other tasks they became more like partners.
The more people move and live in towns the more they forget about the methods used for working with horses and the innate knowledge about handling animals the generations of kids that grow up on farms have.
I see more and more the horse used as a tool for boasting your ego by people that have lost their connection to the domesticated animal and the everyday life with them. It is a pity because it is in the every day life with horses you get to know them and respect them the best.
This group of people is a perfect target for the modern horse whisperer. At least they feel better themselves for spending big money on instant understanding of the horse including a nice certificate.

41. Carolyn02/28/2007 23:00:03

Jessica I think I have to agree with you on that one. It was very well put. The more time I spend studying ancient horsemanship and horse cultures, the more I realize how much of a material item the horse has become. These people depended on their horses to survive- they needed to build a level of trust or understanding with them to come out of a battle with their lives. They knew that there was no miracle cure for horses or an over night method of training them.
The horses I am working with live down the road from Spruce Meadows, and they are allowed to live out in pasture in a herd acting like horses, the complete antithesis to their counterparts down the road. For me nothing is quite so much fun as playing around in the field with our 2 year olds or
hacking bareback in the woods. I spent many years working with horses off the track and was increasingly disheartened by the attitudes of some people towards their horses- they were treated like a fashion accessory.
It has been wonderful reading the posts on this page from people who want to work with their horses and build an understanding...not dominate them. If learning horse archery has taught me anything it is the importance of trust between horse and rider, galloping bareback across an open space, the second you drop your reins to draw the bow you need total belief that your horse will listen to your legs and go where you ask it to, or else you may have quite an accident!

42. Mick07/15/2007 01:46:10

I am impressed with the open minds that are attached to this website. I found it by accident, and am glad I did. I have off and on kept stallions for our personal breeding programs. and have had studs who were definate canidates for termination as well as stallions who were well mannered and when they were no longer with us left a definate emptyness and they were missed. I am glad to see that not every one who has had contact with the parelli program has not swallowed it hook line and sinker. Not everyone can be one with the horse and the universe no matter how much liberty is available. There is no doubt that a stallion is a challenge everyday. They can and must be trained to behave so that you and those that handle the horse can do so safely. Also training does not inherintly mean that pain and abuse are the means to an end. However mind over matter and positive thinking should not be replaced with common sense. Thank you for allowing this comment Good luck and stay safe..

1. shael10/16/2006 10:06:55
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

At the last conference in Febrary of 2006 I asked T. Ryabova about questions, which me, like member of MAAK, can have to decide on the field of Studbook (estimations, biotechnologies, registration and so on). There was answer: "No, you can not. That are rights of VNIIK".

2. Blanca10/16/2006 12:54:13

Hmmm, as far as I understood, VNIIK is for Russia while Maak is the international association. Maak is the one who decides on rules and procedures. Am I right?

3. Todd Keith10/16/2006 13:33:07
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com

Hi Blanca,

VNIIK is the official Russian state owned horse breeding center.
VNIIK owns the Akhal-Teke studbook. Tatyana and Nadya are employed by the Russian Gov to manage the studbook for VNIIK.
MAAK is the "International" breeders association. MAAK was created years (1995) ago by breeders and the stud book management.

4. Todd10/16/2006 15:33:55
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/

I forgot that the Russian Akhal-Teke Association is also run by the same people.

5. Blanca10/16/2006 16:26:48

What is quite meaningful here is that both ladies are paid then by VNIIK, and thus by the Russian Govt.

Nothing negative, simply want to point out the fact that we have full time people thanks to VNIIK. But, of course, there is the other side...

6. Jessica 10/16/2006 16:43:09

Leonid, I copied from the MAAK homepage www.maakcenter.org, there you can read that one of MAAK's main task is to control breeding, perfection and selection of the Tekes, in other words MAAK can according to this rule affect the work of VNIIK, so if as a member of MAAK you can be part of their work with the breed perfection. The MAAK-meeting in Ashgabad was also about these issues and no one was told then that MAAK could not affect the work of VNIIK.
About MAAK:
"Members of MAAK enjoy the following benefits:
-free consultations on keeping and raising Akhal-Teke horses,
-discounted price for selection work with their horses,
-discounted price for registering their horses,
-special books/booklets for 50% of the price and other valuable benefits.
The main purpose of MAAK is to unite breeders and amateurs, of Akhal-Teke horses from different countries, who are involved in breeding pureblood and partblood Akhal-Teke horses or in other ways take part in the preserving and perfection of Akhal-Teke breed.
Main tasks of MAAK are:
1) preservation, protection and perfection of pureblood Akhal-Teke breed, it's breeding purity, original type and working qualities;
2) Control of primarily selecting and breeding work
3) Consultation about breeding and raising of Akhal-Teke horses;
4) Increasing popularity of the breed and distribution of information regarding breeding of Akhal-Teke horses;
5) Increasing of competitiveness of Akhal-Teke breed among other sport breeds, assistance in expansion of the breed in the world.
6) Development of international contacts and cooperation between CIC countries and foreign organizations, companies and private persons in the field of Akhal-Teke breeding.
7) Participation in congress, symposiums and other events corresponding to the activity of the Association.
8) Realization of other activities, appropriate to the purpose of Association and not forbidden by the current legislation.

7. Hans-Jurg Buss10/16/2006 16:58:57

As somebody who instinctively never interested much about MAAK / VNIIK and never met Mrs. Ryabova I am quite astonhished to learn now that even you experts ( I say that not ironically) seem to not really know what is that relationship exactly, besides that the same two ladies seem to work for three different entities.

8. shael10/17/2006 03:40:20
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Rights of you like members of MAAK is dream, only.

9. Jessica10/17/2006 07:54:51

Why does MAAK exist then, if it is not working for the interest of the members/breeders?

Maybe now is the right time to create a breeders alliance?

When I was president of the Swedish Assn. we took the initiative to one European meeting in Switzerland, at that time though, the French had problems with two fighting associations, Italy had no association and Germany was going trough a big shift as Mr Passigatti was leaving after a very long time as president.
A few years later Christoph Vogel took the initiative to the Frankfurt meeting, Sweden did not attend but for several reasons nothing really came out of this meeting.
The last attempt as I know of was made by EuroTeke also by initiative from us in Sweden. However that project fell due to lack of support from Germany and Switzerland mostly.
Maybe it has been the wrong approach or to early to work via national associations for a new breed, it takes time for an association to grow into an institution that can take on not only national but also international challenges.
Maybe a breeder's alliance with a few well defined goals such as international breed promotion (advertising), better collection and presentation of breed statistics such as racing, endurance, eventing, show jumping and dressage results as well as in-hand show results to really show the equestrian world the agility of the breed as well as the real challenge to breed excellent Tekes. Push for improvement and transparency from the Russian state's work with the record keeping and breed evaluation.
I think at this point it is quite obvious that we all (mostly the breed) suffer from lack of coordination, information and cooperation. The lack of professionalism and auhority from the organisations that are supposed to support the breed and the breeders have lead to the fact that more pirates than serious horse people are attracted to this breed, this has led to a lower quality of Tekes produced and people are not attracted to the breed that to them look like mediocre horses good for nothing.
To me it seems like everything is for sale in the Teke world, such as world championships, grading points, MAAK approval (whatever that is) as well as total and blind support for whatever you do from the MAAK/VNIIK offices.

10. shael10/17/2006 08:19:58
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Most important russian breeders have such alliance (unofficial) There are Stavropol Stud, Shamboraunt Stud, Naib Idris Stud.

11. Jessica10/17/2006 09:17:37

That's great Leonid, in my opinion a step in the right direction.
May I ask what your main goal is with your alliance? Will it be open only for Russian quality breeders?

12. Jessica 10/17/2006 09:27:41

I found the Arabian breeders alliance vision statement on the web, I think their goals are very good and food for thought (I strongly object that they call the Arabian horse the oldest breed in the world though):
"# To form a proactive coalition of dedicated Arabian horse breeders whose united efforts ensure the promotion and perpetuation of the worlds oldest breed in an ethical and responsible manner.
# To ensure that all promotional and educational efforts celebrate the natural beauty, nobility, history, and unique character of the breed.
# To provide world-class competitive and evaluation opportunities which showcase the Arabian breed in an exciting and dynamic manner to newcomers and owners alike while providing sound guidance to both breeders and potential owners.
# To ensure that judges for all competitions are selected from an international spectrum of respected people and that all competitive endeavors reflect the highest possible worldwide standards and not merely those of a single country."

13. shael10/17/2006 09:55:52
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

At the beggining we protect each other in our actins. Races, Breeder's Cup "Shael" in Equiros and other initiations. We are open, but i don't know how to relate our interests with actions abroad Russia. Everything expensive. But if we are together can organize total sistem of shows and races? That would be perfect.

14. Hans-Jurg Buss10/17/2006 16:45:18

"MAAK is the "International" breeders association. MAAK was created years (1995) ago by breeders and the stud book management." (Todd above)

Now some questions to the MAAK members reading this blog:

1. Does that mean that MAAK was founded by individual breeders on one side and the state organ VNIIK (=stud book management) on the other?

2. Who are the members of MAAK and who not? a) Individual breeders, b) national associations and c) state organs?

3. How many members MAAK has?

4. Each member one vote?

5. Who is part of MAAK Board? How many persons from where?

6. How many employees does have MAAK, and who are these persons ?

7. How is MAAK financed? By members only? Have you an annual report?

8. According to Leonid the "copyright" of studbook is exclusively with VNIIK. But VNIIK receives the data from MAAK. For free or do they compensate MAAK for collecting the data?

15. shael10/18/2006 00:13:23
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Fife years adoI wrote this article. Today I'd write somr things another, bur in general it is correct stil.

Почему мы против МААК

Осенью 1994 года коннозаводчики всего мира в подавляющем большинстве собрались в г. Дубне для того чтобы основать Международную Ассоциацию Ахалтекинского Коннозаводства (МААК). Создание МААК казалось бы, должно было стать очень важным фактом в деле координации усилий по развитию нашей отрасли. Что же получилось на самом деле, какой же сухой остаток деятельности МААК к концу 2001 года? Расставим факты по своим местам в соответствии с Уставом ассоциации.
1. Выяснилось что, коннозаводчики не являются учредителями МААК. Учредителями же являются - ВНИИ коневодства, некая подпольная общественная организация «Ассоциация Ахалтекинского Коннозаводства СНГ» (ААТК) в составе строго законспирированных учредителей и засекреченных членов и малое предприятие «Ахал Юрт» из Туркменистана. Таким образом, все ведущие конные заводы оказались сторонними наблюдателями и не участвовали в создании уставных документов созданной ассоциации. Кроме того, из публикаций на официальном сайте в интернете (создание и финансирование которого также тайна для коннозаводчиков) выясняется что, ВНИИК и ААТК являются основными учредителями и обладают особенными правами в МААК.
2. В соответствии с уставными задачами МААК обязуется вести племенную книгу чистокровной ахалтекинской породы, осуществлять контроль за первичным племенным учётом (п.2.2.). Удивительным образом из текста выпало ключевое слово «Государственная» племенная книга (ГПК). Дело в том что, ВНИИКу Государством вменено в обязанность ведение племенных книг по конским породам, разводимым в России, и МААК к управлению ГПК не имеет никакого отношения. Но, благодаря данному пункту и не вмешательству ВННИКа у МААК появилась возможность пропускать через себя финансовые потоки, собираемые за регистрацию лошадей в ГПК и устанавливать прейскурант цен за это. Таким образом, коннозаводчики оказались полностью в руках Правления МААК. Влиять на управление у нас нет возможности ввиду ущербности прав членства в ассоциации. А если принять во внимание, что правление МААК, по сути, есть чиновники ВНИИКа, то кольцо нашего бесправия замыкается.
3. Заслуживает внимания определение Уставом членства в Ассоциации (п.4.3.1.). Отсюда следует, что действительным членом МААК может стать любое юридическое лицо, владеющее не менее 10-ю племенными кобылами, и физическое лицо, владеющее не менее 5-ю племенными кобылами. Этот пункт дискриминирует большое количество коневладельцев, не удовлетворяющих данному количественному цензу. Поражены в правах и владельцы племенных жеребцов. Вызывает раздражение следующее положение Устава: «Те действительные члены, которые приняли участие в создании Ассоциации и внесли свой денежный или материальный вклад в фонд Ассоциации, считаются членами-учредителями». То есть только один конный завод «Ахал Юрт». Ну а распределение голосов между действительными членами является фарсом. Так Конный завод имени Ниязова, владеющий более чем ста матками имеет ровно на один голос больше чем физическое лицо, обладающее пятью матками.
4. (п.5.5.) В Правление входят по должности: Президент, два Вице-президента, руководитель Селекционно-племенного центра и исполнительный директор. Свои заседания Правление проводит не реже одного раза в месяц. Кто же у нас входит в Правление? Президентом является господин Ниязов - он же и Президент государства Туркменистан. Возможность общения с ним близка к нолю. Вице-президент «по Туркменистану» - господин Кяризов, он же Президент объединения «Туркменатлары», он же владелец П/Ф «Ахал Юрт». Не имея доступа к информации и к финансовым потокам, большая часть которых должна поступать из Туркменистана, господин Кяризов по сути является «министром без портфеля» и вынужден ограничиться деятельностью внутри Туркменистана. Но амбиции господина Кяризова масштабны и основная цель - это перевод Книги в Туркменистан и доступ к управлению над ахалтекинским сообществом. Ради этого он в 2001 году созвал конференцию в Ашхабаде и объявил о создании ещё одной параллельной МААК с правом ведения ещё одной Книги. Таким образом, де-юре было объявлено о создании новой породы лошадей, претендующей на название «ахалтекинская». Какими же правами наделён г-н Кяризов, позволяющими ему - члену МААК, не выходя из этой организации, создавать другую МААК и распоряжаться отторжением чужой собственности (Государственной Племенной Книги), принадлежащей России, в пользу другого государства – Туркменистан? С другой стороны действия господина Кяризова можно понять: они продиктованы тем бесправным положением его как коннозаводчика в Ассоциации. Это способ борьбы против существующего произвола. Другим Вице-президентом, отвечающим за остальной мир, является госпожа Рябова. Это и есть истинный хозяин МААК и Книги. Госпожа Рябова является государственным регистратором ГПК во ВНИИ коневодства и руководителем Селекционно-племенного центра МААК, которому вменено в соответствии с Уставом (п.5.7.) вести племенную Книгу, выдавать племенные документы, международные сертификаты, лицензировать жеребцов-производителей, проводить и организовывать выставки, выводки, аукционы и т. д. Собственно говоря имеет право на всё. Из кого же состоит Слекцентр? А только из двух человек, уже упомянутого руководителя, госпожи Рябовой и её подчинённой во ВНИИКе госпожи Абрамовой. Госпожа Абрамова, кроме того, входит в Правление МААК в качестве Исполнительного директора МААК, который распоряжается кассой МААК (п.5.9.), куда поступают деньги со всего мира за регистрацию лошадей в ГОСУДАРСТВЕННОЙ Книге. Картина бесправия коннозаводчиков в собственной Ассоциации завершена. Интересно что, для того чтобы исключить казус связанный с наложением обязательств по ведению ГПК двумя организациями (ВНИИК и МААК) в интернете было опубликовано Положение о Селекционно-племенном центре МААК, в качестве которого был объявлен, не больше не меньше, как ВНИИ коневодства. Таким образом, ещё раз нарушен Устав МААК, а ВНИИК поставлен в подчинение руководства МААК в лице госпожи Рябовой (Хорошая новость для ВНИИК).
Таким образом, реально из пяти руководящих постов в Правлении Ассоциации пост Президента равноудалён от нас, как и Солнце, Вице-президент по Туркменистану лишен всяческих полномочий и занят сепаратизмом, а три находятся в руках госпожи Рябовой. Вся деятельность МААК это сплошная АБРОКАДАБРА и участвовать в этом, а тем более быть подопытным кроликом для нашего конного завода не представляется возможным.
Можно добавить что, за шесть лет существования МААК не было ни одного финансового отчёта.
В связи со всем этим К/Ф «Шаэль» имени Владимира Шамборанта приостанавливает все платежи до отчётно-перевыборного собрания.




Леонид Бабаев - директор К/Ф «Шаэль» им. В. Шамборанта.
30 октября 2001 г.

16. maria10/18/2006 05:03:23

perevodit' ili net?

17. shael10/18/2006 05:14:17
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Переводи.

18. maria10/18/2006 07:44:32

Собралась переводить, а оказалось она у меня уже есть в архиве переводов Собрания Сочинений Л. Бабаева! In Autumn 1994 the majority of horse breeders from around the world gathered in Dubna with the intention of founding the International Association of Akhal-Teke Horsebreeding (MAAK). The creation of MAAK, it seemed then, was meant to be a very important step in coordinating our efforts to develop our industry. But what has emerged as a result in reality? What is the net gain of MAAK activities at the end of 2001? Let us arrange the facts in order in accordance with the Constitution of the Association. 1. It turned out that the breeders are not the founders of MAAK. The founder is The All-Russia Research Institute of Horsebreeding; among the founders is some semi-official public body called Association of Akhal-Teke Horsebreeding of the CIS (acronym AATK), alongside with some strictly-encoded founders and secret members, and a small enterprise Akhal-Yurt in Turkmenistan. Meantime all the leading studs have been forced to become the outside observers and didn't take part in the writing of constitutional documentation of the Association thus created. Besides, from the materials on the official site on the internet (whose creation and financing is also a complete mystery for the horse breeders) it emerges that the All-Russia Institute and AATK are the main founders and have special rights within MAAK. 2. In accordance with its foundation principles, MAAK takes it upon itself to maintain a studbook of the pure-bred Akhal-Teke horses and exercise control over the primary process of registration (article 2.2). In a curious turn of events, the key phrase "State" Studbook. The point is, All-Russia Research Institute of Horsebreeding (ARRHB) is entrusted with the responsibility of maintaining studbooks of horse breeds bred in Russia, and MAAK has no business in managing the State Studbooks. But thanks to the above-mentioned article, and to a lack of objections from ARRHB, MAAK has gained a route by means of which it is able to channel the financial contributions, collected from the registration of horses as well as an opportunity to set registration prices. In this way, horse breeders have found themselves entirely at the mercy of MAAK. We have no right to exert any influence on the management of MAAK due to the fact that our rights within it are very limited. If we take into account that the Ruling Committee of MAAK in practice consists of ARRHB officials, we can see how the vicious circle has closed around us. 3. One should look closer at the definition of membership of the Association (article 4.3.1). It transpires from it that any legal body can become a member of MAAK, provided it owns at least 10 brood mares and any individual who owns at least 5 mares. This article discriminates against a large number of horse owners who do not qualify on the grounds of this quantitative restriction. The rights of breeding stallion owners are also affected. The following point of the Constitution causes considerable irritation: "Those members, who took part in the creation of the Association and who contributed in a monetary or material way to the Association funds are the founder members of MAAK". This means - only one stud - Akhal-Yurt As to the distribution of voting rights between members, it is a pure farce. For example, the Niyazov Stud, which owns more than a hundred broodmares has only one vote more than an individual who owns 5 broodmares. 4. Article 5.5 The Managing Committee consists of the President, two Vice-Presidents, the manager of selection and breeding centre and an executive director. Committee meets no less than once a month. So who is the member of the Managing Committee? The President is Mr Niyazov - also the President of the Republic of Turkmenistan. The possibility of direct contact with him is close to zero. Vice-President, representing Turkmenistan, is Mr Kyariov, also the President of the association Turkmen-Atlary, also the owner of the enterprise Akhal-Yurt. As Mr Kyarizov has no access to the internal information and to finances of MAAK, most of which should come to MAAK from Turkmenistan, he is - de facto - a Minister without Portfolio and is forced to work with the breed within Turkmenistan only. But Mr Kyarizov is an ambitious man, whose main aim is to transfer the Studbook to Turkmenistan and gain some control over the management of the Akhal-Teke fraternity. With this aim in mind he organised a conference in Ashkhabad in Spring 2001 and announced the creation of a parallel MAAK with the right of maintaining another studbook. In this way, from the legal point of view, a creation of a new breed has been announced, wanting to be known as Akhal-Teke. What rights does Mr Kyarizov have to allow him, a member of MAAK, without giving up his membership, to go and create another MAAK and make a decision to appropriate, on behalf of Turkmenistan, somebody else's property (The State Studbook), which belongs to Russia? On the other hand, one can understand the actions of M Kyarizov: they are provoked by his lack of proper rights as a horse breeder within the Association. His actions are just an attempt to fight the existing lawlessness. The other vice-president, representing the rest of the world, is Mrs Ryabova. She is the real boss of MAAK and the Studbook. Mrs Ryabova has the status of the State Registrar within ARRHB and the head of the Department of Selection and Breeding, which, in accordance with article 5.7, has the responsibility of maintaining the Studbook, issuing registration documents, international certificates, licence stallions and organise events and exhibitions, shows and auctions. In effect, she has all the rights. Who is the member of the Selection and Breeding Centre? Only two people - the above-mentioned Mrs Ryabova and her subordinate within MAAK, Ms Abramova. Ms Abramova is also a member of MAAK Managing Committee and an Executive Director of MAAK who handles all the funds from around the world levied for the registration of horses in the State Studbook. Thus the picture depicting the lack of proper rights of horse breeders within their own association is completed. It is interesting to note, that in order to avoid a sticking point of two organisations (ARRHB and MAAK) having to maintain the Studbook, there was a publication on the internet entitled Statement on Selection and Breeding Centre MAAK, where - amazingly - ARRHB was nominated as the above Centre. In this way, the Constitution of MAAK has been violated again and ARRHB has been made subordinate to MAAK, de facto to Mrs Ryabova (good news for ARRHB). In this way, in reality, out of five posts on the Association Committee the post of President is as remote and inaccessible as the sun, vice president representing Turkmenistan lacks any rights and has embarked on a separatist course of action, and the remaining three posts are in the hands of Mrs Ryabova. All the activities of MAAK are pure ABRACADABRA and to take part in it, as well as to be a guinea-pig for our stud does not seem like a reasonable option. One can only add that, in the six years since MAAK inception there has not been a single financial report. Therefore, the Vladimir Shamborant Horsebreeding Farm Shael is suspending all payments until the Annual General Meeting of Voters. Leonid Babaev - director of the Vladimir Shamborant Horsebreeding Farm Shael 30 October 2001

19. Hans-Jurg Buss10/18/2006 07:44:54

Leonid, I have made a rough "translation" of your article and it seems to me that you have pretty much "answered" already five years ago exactly those questions I have just raised yesterday!

20. maria10/18/2006 07:45:52

All, I hope this is the right version - I found it on my computer, I think it is... I am in rush now to take Mualim for his dressage saddle fitting this afternoon, so haven't checked it word by word. Let me know if you find mistakes!

21. Hans-Jurg Buss10/18/2006 07:51:56

.... well and in the meantime Maria already has made a real translation. Thank you. And I am impressed about your speed Maria!

22. Darya10/18/2006 08:12:52
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

What a mess, looks like there is not only shortage of good riders, there is shortage of good lawyers as well. Perfect example of how things work (or do not work) in Russia. Shall everyone get together again for MAAK 2, since original MAAK was such a hit? Sorry for being sarcastic. This does involve me after all, and everyone, who has got a Teke and trying to figure out this situation. Truly sad situation. What are the ideas on resolving this? Would very much appreciate to hear that, if I haven't annoyed the hell out of everyone yet.

23. shael10/18/2006 08:40:01
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Don't worry. Necessary to work with VNIIK like breeders or like national assotiations. If breeders want to correct MAAK, please let do it, or create new World Organization of breeders with new Book, wich goes from VNIIK's Book. I prefer to correct MAAK, wich has history.

24. Darya10/18/2006 09:05:37
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

How do we correct MAAK, if me, for example, won't even qualify to be a member? And national organisation is the first priority to work on. Hopefully we will be able to attend future gatherings of breeders as UK representatives. That is one of our goals.

25. Jessica 10/18/2006 09:41:52

Excellent article Leonid. MAAK in a nutshell. Great translation Maria.
I think you should be the official Writer of the Legends of this breed. Quality is important not only in our horses but also in our presentation of the breed to the world audience.
Ok back to MAAK, spontaneously it seems like it would be easier to turn your back to MAAK and get going with a brand new breeder's association, this mostly because it would take a lot of energy to work on internal problems like cleaning out the many sceletons from the wardrobe.
Leonid mentions the secret owners and unknown forces that are engaged in MAAK, some of them have already caused real problems for the breed's image in the west and I see no way of having these groups working in an open and progressive organisation.
The work with reforming MAAK might fail and then time and energy have been lost for nothing and you still would have to start all over again. Time is essential in my opinion.
If I cannot see a change within five years, I will keep a few Tekes for riding, but defenitely spend my breeding efforts within another breed with an established infrastructure focused on breed improvement.
What I do, does of course not matter, but I know others that also have been instrumental for the Tekes introduction in their home countries that feel the same. And we do not want to loose to many with a history in this breed. And even more important loose newcomers that decide to go with another breed instead as there are to many difficulties to overcome.
Founding a new organisation is very hard work and the risk of failure is big.
I can only see this happening if the absolute authorities in this breed would instigate the work and more than 50% of todays established, well renowned breeders world wide, committed to support and join. The good thing with a new, transparent goal oriented organisation is that it might be easier to find resourceful sponsors to the organisation. This would be almost impossible with the history and structure of MAAK.
However, I think we have identified the problem with the present breed organisation and infrastructure, which is ever so important and now let's go on and brainstorm for the future!

26. Hans-Jurg Buss10/18/2006 11:03:25

Leonid, now that I could read your article in full I am even more impressed of how much it matched the questions I have raised. Even the point of lacking financial annual reports you mentioned briefly. Of course my questions have been based on my instinctive reception of how MAAK presented to me all the time since I am engaged in this breed (i.e. since 2000). Now I have the confirmation, or does anyone here has a different opinion in general or with regard to specific points? But it may well be the breeders which are happy with MAAK do not read this blog.

What does surprise me however after having read his article is the fact that Leonid would prefer "to correct MAAK". I am not a fan either of new organizations and "shismas". But the situation with MAAK seems to me for historical and political reasons impossible to improve within reasonable time to such a point that a self-confident and renowned breeder would join freely this organization. Just think about this: how can you join an organization with such a President? Political reasons may recommend politeness to certain persons. But I am a free man with no diplomatic obligations.

I do not think it is correct to say that this is "a perfect example of how things work (or do not work) in Russia". That is to short minded. The problem lies within the total history of this breed during 20th century and its protagonists on a personal and political level.

27. shael10/18/2006 11:16:39
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Another way new organithation. It is very easy. Right now we have agreement between Stavropol and Shamboraunt Studs. Somebody else can come to us and so on. We can have i-net conference about it.

28. Darya10/18/2006 16:14:02
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

What would be the criteria for the breeders to join you? Would just owners be able to join you as well?

29. shael10/19/2006 02:52:59
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Anyone who respect princips of whole blood.

30. Darya10/19/2006 03:44:33
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

That sounds good. Can we have a list of main points (principals) that are important to you and you respect most? Would be good to hear what you are against as well.
Thank you.

31. shael10/19/2006 04:09:46
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

We are against of biotechnolodies and sistem of estimations.
We are for audit of Book, by breeder's society. If we can not control Book, we need to create corporative Book and to admit this book only.

32. Darya10/20/2006 08:55:46
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Could you make it clear for me, if you are against systems of estimations, what is selection meant to be based on and what the society would advise to breeders, i. e., what are the guidelines for breeders from this association? Or is it personal choice of a breeder? If so, how do we make sure that it does not happen that someone goes to their horses and simply trying to see, how far they can mutate them? How would this organisation make sure that the breed is kept healthy&sound? Sooooo many questions.

33. shael10/20/2006 09:23:59
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Every step is personal CHOICE of breeder.

34. Hans-Jurg Buss10/20/2006 09:33:36

Dary, it's nice that you are enthusiastic, but do not go too fast. With or without a new inerntaional breeders association any breeder may do what he wants. If he decides to breed two defect pure breds the offspring will remain a pure bred, most probably however with defects. You can not "make sure that it does not happen" just by writing some guidelines by a new organization.

35. Darya10/20/2006 10:44:24
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you for understanding, but I see other organisations where they approve their stallions, for example, so that the mare owners can not be decieved and use a stallion for the mare that has got deffects, and should not be approved. So that gives people and the breed some kind of protection. I know for every rule there will be someone to try and break it, but may be it is a good idea to have something like that. Could it be the way to secure healthy future for the breed? And are there any other suggestions on trying to achieve that? Or does it not make the sence to at least try?

36. shael10/20/2006 11:12:23
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Darya, you are personl can oder this approvement from any person, whom you trust. I want to see such organization, wich will come to me or to Klimuk to approve our horses. In general, all other come to us to take horses not to the contrary.
If you can not understand such simple things, why did you decide to breed pureblood breed?

37. Darya10/20/2006 12:48:32
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Ok, I understand, I guess it is just me being worried about things I should not worry. There will always be people doing bad things, and there will always be people doing good and amazing things. I guess all I should be concearned with is making sure that I do good things and do my best to learn how to do it. Thank you very much. It all helps me to make up my mind and my own strong opinion, as without one it is the road to failure.

38. Hans-Jurg Buss10/20/2006 13:46:17

Darya, you got it.

39. Hans-Jurg Buss10/20/2006 15:16:02

Jessica, coming back to your initial issue: "As it appears one might think that the General Akhal-Teke Stud book is owned and operated by both associations". That is really what it looks like. But things seem to be different from whate they look like. And within the "main tasks of MAAK" cited above by you there is in fact no mention of management of Studbook. "Copyright" of Studbook is obviously only with VNIIK. The questions are what does "copyright" in practice mean and what possible consequences this situation may have for an alternative international breeders association.

40. Christoph Vogel11/13/2006 17:50:54
Homepage: http://www.achal-tekkiner.ch

Why does it is so difficult to transform MAAK into an organization similar to that of the WAHO? We could learn a lot from their long experiences managing a breed on a word wide basis! VNIIK is a member of WAHO since years! We do not have to reevent the wheel! The solution is well known - the way to get there is the problem!

There is missing the will of MAAK and VNIIK to transform - what do they have to loose?

For WAHO see: http://www.waho.org/

41. Jessica 11/14/2006 08:25:24

Christoph,
It is to late for the Teke breed to create the WAHO concept, we have the wrong people to much involved in the breed, in the west no visionaries, no big thinkers but mostly backyard breeders that only look for protecting their own, in most cases mediocre, horses from competition and also work to keep the public in the dark so that the breed standard can be fit to their own horses, I see examples of this every day. The backyard breeders are in majority and they will not change their attitudes.
In Russia there are several professional breeders with great horses and great visions mixed with new producers that are attracted to the breed's present hype and they will not be interested in changing the system as they use it for their own profit. The Russian breeders that want a change are supressed by a totalitarian MAAK that dictates every detail in the breed.
If you follow the history of the Arabian horse in the west you can see that WAHO was created by intelligent people that could see beyond their own horses and wallets, the ideology was democracy transparancy, the love was for the breed not your own horses.
You ask what T. Ryabova and N. Abramova, the management of MAAK have to loose, they have everything to loose and so far in history, no one lets go of power from free will.
You will have to find a large enough group of visionaries and ideologists that can create a successful entity, maybe not completely like WAHO but maybe something similar. This, my friend, is the challenge!

42. Prisse01/19/2007 05:53:29

Last October Hans-Jurg wrote about MAAK: Just think about this: how can you join an organization with such a President?
That president died last December.
(Much more) unfortunately also G. Kyarizov might be dead by now.

It is interesting to see what changes it will bring to MAAK. If any.
Thank You all for clarifying comments. Especially Maria's translation of Leonid's writing was very useful.

It is sad that "WAHO" seems such a distant goal in A-T world. Maybe we would also need proud and extravagantly spendthrift arabian sheiks...??

43. Chris02/21/2007 08:45:00

Thank you maria for the translation of Why I disagree with MAAK by M Babaev, I was looking for that on the shael site. In the United States different breeds (Morabs, for example) have split their organization. The breed (to the very important buyer of said breed) appears weaker and the events (shows and championships) are poorer. The US Akhal-Teke breeders rely heavily on MAAK for purity issues and registration. Most are aware of the organizational machinations in MAAK but are hopeless to do anything to improve things. Imports seem to come from only a few sources overseas, notably Dubna. Are the purity issues artificial? What other issues are artificial? Of course someone may claim anything they like (pro or con) for the sake of profit... Please, where is MAAK headed today and who is running it?

1. Tabitha04/20/2006 06:27:56
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/tabithameijer/index.html

Hi Jessica,

I'm sure you're very busy but now I'm really curious to your sparkling and growing horses!
Are there any pictures available yet?

1. Leonid04/01/2007 12:12:45
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Super!!!

2. Carolyn04/01/2007 13:03:39

Those are some gorgeous photos!

3. Jessica04/01/2007 20:42:43

Leonid and Carolyn, thanks so much for your encouraging words!
Today, Sunday, we went to see another Teke miracle, more about this later.

4. Tabitha04/03/2007 04:01:26

Great pictures!! Love that last one!

1. Jessica D.04/24/2007 20:49:40

That sounds about right to me...on the whole long back fault. But I do think that if she can jump well and moves well enough...Astra could still do pretty well in Hunters...Conformation comes more into play in the in-hand classes more so than the under saddle classes. ;)

2. Jessica04/25/2007 08:54:31

We entered into this class more for social training and of course curiosity about how she would be judged. It was a nice bonus that we won. Astra will do under saddle classes, she is a good prospective jumper.
We're currently looking for someone who can show her.

1. Kerri-Jo Stewart05/14/2007 01:40:21
Homepage: http://GoldenDreams.ca

In Vancouver we have Toddish McWong (http://www.gunghaggisfatchoy.com/)
Unfortunately he is not in the Stewart Clan!

I want these circus guys to teach me how to train my Tekes!! Maybe we could have a Kuirdak-Haggis Teke show.

1. Hans-J■rg Buss10/12/2006 14:38:18

Some weeks ago we all could admire excellent sport horses of different types and breeds at the World Equestrian Games 2006 in Aachen, Germany. I hoped that at least the Russian team would be present there with an Akhal Teke, be it in Eventing or in Endurance. But I could not see any. The russian breeders of ATs, to whom are they selling there "excellent" horses?

What are these Tekes doing there, just staying in the stables or on the pastures? What importance or meaning does it have to state "... the Akhal-Teke stallion Peikam won a testing 120 km marathon around the Moscow ring road, and in 2001 the stallion Zabeg became Russian champion over 60 km..." That's ridiculous by international endurance standards.

2. Darya10/12/2006 14:49:14
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

The only people who would bring Tekes to show like that would be Western breeders, who are "doing the wrong thing alltogether". This is the rewards you get for trying to promote the breed.:-/

3. Jessica D.10/12/2006 15:34:04

It almost seems to me to be an "us four and no more" mentality. They want the Teke to increase in numbers and quality yet they seem to want to shut out anyone who thinks differently.

4. Nadja10/12/2006 18:12:28
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

If foreign owners of sports Teke will inform results in MAAK, the information will be published everywhere. In all official publications, including studbook. Unfortunately, few foreign owners inform it. And a little, who sends official results with acknowledgement. The report of competitions.
Jessica. ■ Again a finger in the sky ■.
This clause tells about classical kinds of equestrian sport. Races - not a classical kind of sports, therefore about them here are not present anything.

5. Todd Keith10/12/2006 19:34:10
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/

Nadja,

Racing is the FIRST horse sport. The most classic of all. We in the west call it the sport of Kings. No, it is not a classical Olympic sport. The classical Olympic sports were created for the warmbloods.

p.s. Next time you talk to the Nadja or Tatyana you can ask if the DNA results of our 9 horses ever arrived. I am still waiting on confirmation that they arrived, I sent them 2004.... 3 times.

Todd

6. Nadja10/13/2006 02:55:03
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

Todd.
You can duplicate results on e-mail tagat@bk.ru
You have paid passports and registration of horses?

7. Nadja10/13/2006 03:18:04
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

I have talked. You need to send the additional information. And to you already informed it.
DNA analyses of parents, the DNA analyses of foals, photos of foals that marks were visible, measurements of foals, the list about a covering and a birth foals with date of a covering and with date of a birth. Money for registration and passports.Copies on e-mail, Originals by post

8. Jessica10/13/2006 09:04:57

Nadya,
It is great that you are volunteering as international relations rep for MAAK. Gives you a little bit of a bad feeling though as an employed sales rep for a Teke stud farm should have this position. '
Might make you think that favours are returned in a way that might question the objectivity within this breed.....
Please tell Ms Abramova to resend the email from 2004, obviously we did not recieve it as we haven't replied.
As it has become so easy to register Tekes now I will from today add a day counter on how many days it takes to get our Tekes registered and events will be added in the KaraKum diary, so that others can use the diary notes as a how-to-manual for quick and easy registration.
We cannot supply MAAK with points for conformation and type of our horses until there will be an inspection tour in the USA.

9. Jessica 10/13/2006 09:25:15

I forgot to mention, if the how-to-register manual turns out good, MAAK can use it for free to simplify the registration process.
We are one big happy family of friends in this breed aren't we!

10. Nadja10/13/2006 10:01:08
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

Jessica
Abramova cannot send you e-mail since 2004. Hers computer has been broken, and harddisk was not subject to restoration.
She only has told, that you had correspondence in 2004. She has received two letters from Todd. Has answered, but on it all has ended. She tried to send some times to you a copy of last letter, but the answer again was not.
Analyses on DNA in America do in the Californian institute. Them accept in MAAK. You can do analyses DNA in any laboratory with the international accreditation. It is necessary for acknowledgement of an origin also that have been made DNA tests of both parents.
If you really are interested in receiving documents I can help. You can send any information on mine e-mail. I shall check, that she has got in VNIIK and MAAK. I always in the Internet. I here live. Abramova and Ryabova have a lot of other work. And Abramova checks e-mail not more often than an once in a week.
Unfortunately, I cannot inform you now cost of registration. But she will be higher, than annual. It is more favourable to register horses in this year of their birth. Registration on the following and in one year costs more expensive.
I also in MAAK send contracts with buyers annually. (but without the prices). I do two copies with the prices for me and clients and one without the prices for MAAK. On the basis of these contracts of a horse receive new passports with names of new owners. The maximal term of expectation in my practice was month. August - September. At this time and Ryabova and Abramova go with inspection on studfarms of Russia. Also at this time the Championships in Moscow and Pyatigorsk and exhibition Equiros. Therefore they did not have opportunity to make for me documents. But I about it have been warned in July and warned of it all my clients too beforehand.
With France and Czechia is signed the contract at a national level. They receive documents quickly and without delays. But presidents of Associations on a regular submit all documents in electronic, and then in the paper form. One person collects all applications in all country, and he receives documents and distributes to their customers. It is very convenient. It would be ideal, if you have organized something similar in America.

11. Blanca10/13/2006 10:18:26

The discussions are no interesting that I don't have time to catch up with everything.

Jessica, in spite of Nadya's position in a private AT stud it would be lovely to have her -somebody, for God sake!!!- as representative of Maak...

Nadya, I'm still waiting the papers for my mare. I asked for them in 2002...I'm also waiting for copies of studbooks and other things I ordered in 2002...I used to be member of Maak but nobody bothered to let me know how to renew my membership...

I really want to learn so I take any opportunity I have. When Tatyana came to France I literally assaulted her with questions and doubts. But obviously, this is not enough.

Fortunately, we have things that Sigrid Hauser's catalog of the EU ATs and Todd's catalog. Believe, I would love to pay for the latest studbook issued by Maak but please, somebody let me know HOW, if every time you try to phone Ryazan doesn't work or when you send an e-mail it always remains without reply.

Well, enough venting of a small owner in far Europe

Coming back to tekes in sport:

Hans Jurg, Kazakhstan was represented in the WEG of Aachen by Sergey Buikievich and his excellent Volan...ok, he's a hanno-teke, but nobody is perfect...unfortunately, Sergey couldn't get into the dressage court because Volan started bleeding from the nose 5 minutes before...the good thing is that Sergey is competing now in Europe with him. This week end he's somewhere in Germany; last week end he was in Hungary.

The Kazakh team had also brought Matador, an excellent son of Argus (Alagir). Matador was already doing Saint George and the idea was to have him competing in Europe so that he could improve his level. The very sad news is that he got the so called "transport sicknes" and they had to put him to sleep a couple of weeks ago. I find this extremely sad because I know how much this horse and his rider had worked to come where they were...

12. Blanca10/13/2006 10:52:42

Sorry, I wanted to say

"The discussions are no SO interesting that I don't have time to catch up with everything.

13. Nadja10/13/2006 10:55:42
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru

Blanca.
Write once again to me on e-mail your problem. Only today. And I today shall talk about it with Abramova. I did copies of studbooks to my friends in Europe and America. It too not a problem. Originals for a long time are not present on sale
Sometimes documents on horses years wait payments. If you paid documents you should receive them. I hope, that they were not lost.
You also can independently write for N.Abramova on tagat@bk.ru
Tomorrow I shall leave on studfarm till October, 21.
p.s. I not representative MAAK in the Internet. Also I do not want to be him. I only want to help with a situation with documents.

14. shael10/13/2006 11:53:15
Homepage: http://shael-teke.ru

Blanca, correctly teko-hanno. It is important

15. Hans-J■rg Buss10/13/2006 14:12:14

Tekes in sport, that is the title of this thread.

Thank you very much Blanca for your information about Aachen and the Kazakh team. So at least they. I was not aware of that.

On the website of MAAK- above cited by Jessica - it is stated that
"...such representatives of the breed as Propeller, Maksut, Galambiya, Bugar and others have demonstrated their ability by winning and being placed in major three-day events."

Can anyone give us more precise details about these "major three-day events" ? I am very interested.

16. Todd10/13/2006 14:53:59
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/

You should ask Sasha Klimuk as well. He had Mansur (son of Dornazarbek) that competed in Eventing successfully. I don't know at what levels.
This also forgets Desiree Hanen who on her purebred Teke gelding (Pelvan aka Love over Gold) competed for the Dutch National Team in endurance in the late 1990s...

Todd

17. Blanca10/30/2006 07:10:04

This week end I was visiting in Germany the Kazakhstani team who is training in Europe.

I saw the horses they have brought from Almaty and the horses they are buying. I am very happy to see how they are progressing but also very sad to see that since Matador died, Volan is the only teke (and only hanno-teke) who remains in the Kazakh team. The rest are enormous European and Russian horses. Even the rider of Matador has bought a gigantic Donerhall in order to go to the Asian games in Qatar...

I was told that at present, lorries come to Almaty from Europe or Moscow full of warmbloods.Everybody starts now jumping or doing dressage with them.

Moreover, very expensive English TB are being imported by the new Kazakhs for their baigas and their races. Endurance has also started being popular in the country, but they use basically tersk horses

The last tekes are still in the arena, but they are been replaced by all these Weltmeyers, Rubinsteins and Florestans. The best ATs are already a bit old: Guipur is already out of the circuits, Audan will also leave, maybe this is his last GP season...

Of course this is life and I understand that these people are above all sporstmen. But it is devastating for me to see that the European warmblood industry killed the golden cross.

On a happier note, it was nice to see in the recent international competition in Arnhus Volan/Buikievich competing against Anky Van Grusven! See the results in http://kazequestrian.org/

Long live to Lugovskoi!!!

1. Leonid04/10/2007 08:39:29
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

You need to rename, not "Kara-Kum" - "SunnyGreen-Kum"

2. Jessica04/10/2007 09:03:27

Yes, we need a total name makeover.
I have been considering Darby Turks as we live in the little village of Darby and to drop the Teke name, and go back to the name our type of horses were given the first time they entered Europe in the 17th century.
The Turks are also described as having incredible stamina free-flowing movement and a good temperament. The first Turks to enter England were described as "A horse of a strong and comely fashion, loving disposition, and infinite courageousness. His limbs and general features are so strong and well-knit together that he has ever been reputed the only beast for the wars, being naturally free from fear or cowardice. His head is long, lean and very slender; and does from eye to nose bend like a hawk's beak. He has a great, full eye, a sharp ear, and a straight leg, which, to an over curious eye might appear too slender -- which is all the fault curiosity itself and find. They are naturally of a lofty pace, loving to their rider, most strong in their exercise, and to conclude, as good in all points that no foreign race has ever borne a tithe so much excellence."
this description fits so much better to our horses than the common description of Tekes as stubborn one man's horses with a conformation unsuitable for riding.

3. Leonid04/10/2007 09:29:39
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Darby TekeTurks (DTT)

4. Jessica04/10/2007 09:45:20

Perfect name Leonid! I will make this suggestion to Todd and maybe we will soon have our own breed and our own state-of-the-art registry.

5. Leonid04/10/2007 11:09:03
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Turk has another mean - turkey cock. May be simple - "Darby-Teke"

6. Carolyn04/10/2007 11:22:27

Good heavens, no wonder you were so excited about getting some rain- those are pretty impressive dust clouds in the photos. Wish we had that luck up here in Canada- continuous cycle of snow, rain and mud! Summer has to come eventually (I hope)
Gorgeous pics yet again.

7. Jessica04/10/2007 12:29:41

Carolyn, I think photo number three could be named the golden horses from the Black Sand Desert!
I know how you feel with never ending snow and mud in the spring, I am not envious!

8. Jessica04/10/2007 12:35:35

I like Turk though as it has references to the Turkmen horse and also was a part of the name of many important founding horses of the English TB like Place's White Turk, Darcy's Turk and Byerly Turk, the Arabs, Barbs and Turks are known to most people as being founders of the TB while the name Akhal-Teke has no references in earlier literature.

9. Darya04/10/2007 16:38:45
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I like the idea of calling horses Turks. Often when people ask me of the breed I mention that they are Turkmen horses (or Turks). It seems to underline the history and how ancient the breed is. To people who are more into history it brings all the associations with favourable descriptions too.

Not sure about trying to create a new breed though. I know it is easier just to completely start anew, but I think the results are (or will be) better if we work hard to improve the situation with the old.

10. Jessica04/10/2007 17:44:14

Darya, Turks should work fine in England as the first Turks were imported into England, Todd also reminded me that until the 19th century the French called the English TB "Anglo Turc". That was before the Arabians were introduced to England.
I think that the Akhal-Teke brand already is connected with low quality animals, obscure history and non existing studbook integrity in the west to be worth while spending efforts working on improving. For every step we take ahead we will have to back two due to the so called international breed management. I have seen much of my work destroyed by them already and I am not stupid enough to make the same mistake twice.
The Turks is not a new breed it is a new approach to the finest breed in the world, we had a Ferrarri now it has been trashed to the value of a Skoda (no offense to Skoda owners, for some the Skoda SUV is cult).

11. Kerri-Jo Stewart04/10/2007 19:21:06
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

wow - gorgeous horses and amazing colours!!!!

12. Heather04/16/2007 08:56:46

Back from Easter break, and happy to find new pictures! They are lovely. Todd, Bob Langrish is a very good photographer, no doubt, but I haven't seen images yet that outdo your own. Perhaps in addition to horses, IT business, and finch breeding, you should become horse photographer extraordinaire?? Especially if you get that new Canon and can fire off a gillion frames per second!

13. Todd04/16/2007 11:28:33
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com/

Thanks Heather!
Do you think I can make more money as a photographer than breeding finches???

14. Heather04/16/2007 13:48:26

Haha! Well, I took Gwynn to the pet store just for fun this past Saturday... so NO, maybe not. They had some beautiful finches, but I was thinking perhaps I am in the wrong business! I should quit teaching and start breeding finches! $$$$

15. Kerri-Jo Stewart04/17/2007 01:32:32
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

I agree with Heather - I really like Todd's photography.

16. Laurence Bougault04/17/2007 17:26:52
Homepage: http://www.cheval-akhal-teke.com

Hi everybody,
Jessica, i thought to your turk name. I worked on Napoleon horses and saw 4 eastern breeds : barb, turk, arab and turkmen... Don't make the mistake between Turk and Turkmen. Booth exist from very long time... It's really difficult to do something with old studbooks... What i saw is some of those horses are unusually tall : a few "barb", coming from the bey of Tunis, and some "turk" as well. Old authors talked about 2 differents "barbs". In the XIXe century, Ottoman were all over from Turkish land up to Marroco... and Ottoman were Turkmen people. What I think is some of the horses came directly from Akhal area, other are mixed Arab/Turkmen... In 19e century, the name is Turcoman, no? And i really like it. Should be akhal téké true name, no?? Remember, at the beginning was only one studbook, turkmen horses, divided in 2 parts, Akhal téké and yomud. Do you know yomud are disappearing at the moment? Their are wonderfull endurance horses too...
About Napoléon and the akhal tekes i wrote an article on my website but i'm too stupid in english for a translation!!

17. Jessica04/18/2007 14:30:54

Laurence, first have you any news on your quest for a Teke in Azerbadjan?
The subject of Akhal-Teke Turkmen Turk is so interesting so I will create a new subject for this discussion.
The Napoleon - Akhal-Teke connection is new to me! On my mothers side our founding mother was a mistress to Napoleon, I inherited her golden cross some years ago. Maybe I can call our horses Napoleon Turks now!
I will babelfish your text as soon as we get a rainy day here, to much sun here really to have time to read.

18. Tabitha04/19/2007 06:47:34

No need to Jessica. Here is the translation (as best as I could do). Where I was not certain I placed a [?] sign.
------
Did Napoleon have Akhal-Tekes?

Thanks to the excellent book “Les chevaux de Napoléon” (Napoleon’s horses) written by Philippe Osché with cooperation of Frédéric Künzi, art historian, it is possible to consider the Akhal-Teke in an historian perspective.In those times the European (and others, with perhaps the exception of the Arabian) did not know studbooks. The designation of horses was pretty vague and often corresponded more on locations as to type.
A lot of Napoleon’s horses originated from the Orient. These oriental horses were recorded as Barb, Arab, Turc or Persian.They came from Turkey (a lot were offered par the Ambassador of the “Sublime Porte”), from Marocco (offered by his Majesty the King of Marocco), from Egypt (taken during campagns?), from Russia (mostly the Arab and Persian horses).
By reading Phillipe Osté’s book, which shows a remarkable precision, one quickly distinguishes that these designations includes/cover horses with very much differences among them (certainly the Arabs, some measuring 1.47 m and others 1.60 m up to 1.70 m!) and differ much from the present designations (almost all barbs were big, between 1.56m and 1.60m, where nowadays there mostly small horses, between 1.40m and 1.50m).
In short it is, in almost all cases, very difficult to confirm this or that. However, certain horses seemed to us very close to the Turkmen type for the following reasons: their rather high size (at least 1,52 m with the garrot), their very vertical wearing of head, their croup falls with a tail attached low, their allied robustness [?]with the smoothness of the limbs, and sometimes of their golden and soft yellow colors. Since at that time Turkey was under the Ottoman influence, i.e. Turkmen, all this is not very surprising. The riders of those times covered very long distances (Napoleon often traversed 100 km per day in shift, by changing horse regularly) and the Eastern habit of offering horses in pledge of peace (perpetuated today by Nyazov) was very widespread. As for the horses bought in Russia and known as Persian or Arab, nothing contradicts that it concerns the famous Argamaks, the Russian name for the Turkmen horses. Certain horses of Napoleon were even named “The Turkmen”, which is in reality a poor indication, because nobody at the time worried about the historical and geographical veracity (one finds for example a Norman horse named the Russian!). However, this name testifies at least to a knowledge of Eastern races coming from this area of the world, Turkmenistan. Some horses really made me think of Akhal-Tekes. La Belle, for example is indexed as a Barb mare. It measures 1,56 m at the withers. When one looks at the drawings that represent it, in particular that of Pierre Martinet, one is struck by the typically Turkmen carriage of the neck . If David draws him a long mane, the other painters however represent it very short. Finally its back is rather hollow and long, which obviously remind one of horses like Arabs for example.
Le Curde, indicated in the registers as a Turc stallion of 1,52m at the withers, made me also think of him as Akhal-Téké by the illustrations that reached us: the head is small on a massive body. The inclination of the shoulders and the croup resembles that of modern Tekes, the feet are very tilted, the hair is sparse, the dry and fine members. The text accompanying the precise engraving of Mandret "that it has distinction, elegance and beautiful forms" and that it has a very good trot. One does not know if its paces in trot were gliding like those of Akhal-Tekes, which have, because of their pace of which the natural extension is remarkable, contributed to the famous Orlov trotter breed.
Le Dardanus, of which we unfortunately do not have a portrait, was a Turk stallion of 1,60m at the withers and golden bay. One unfortunately knows almost nothing about the origins of this horse.
L' Emir, a buckskin Turk stallion, measured only 1,47m at the withers but was given by the Large Lord of Turkey. He proved his endurance during the campaign of Russie.
L'Ispahan (n°1030/1773 in the Register of Napoleon’s saddle horses), a Turk gelding was silvery gray and measured 1,58m at the withers. We know almost nothing about him and there unfortunately does not remain any portrait of this horse.
One finds also horses known as Turkmen, bought in Russia by Mr Lavarine. They are generally small (1,45/1,47m).
Menouf, whole Arab, sent by the Lord of Turkey, measured 1,58m at the withers and was recorded shining bay, [line of mule??], which could correspond very well to a buckskin.
Le Sara, of which there are two portraits (one of Martinet and one of Sauerweid) is recorded as an Arab stallion of 1,58m. One does not know his origin but he resembles very little to a modern Arab. It was a large and massive horse, with a long back and a fine neck. It was represented by Martinet with little hair.
Le Tamerlan is also interesting. It was small, 1.49m at the withers and known as Persian, silver gray and coming from Russia. It is represented in rearing pose by Vernet. Its eye is clear and its head particularly long.
Le Turckmen (n°138) has an evocative name. It is indicated as Arab and measuring 1,52m at the withers. It was offered by the Ambassador of “la Sublime Porte”. The comments are interesting: "It has size, a regular shape and beautiful limbs/extremities[?]. This horse has speed, places its feet very certain, but a little difficult to lead because its head is badly attached. It has also too much mandible[?] "(horses of Napoleon, p. 244) Did it have a swan neck? Clearly, all these remarks are not evidence. They simply invite us to consider/reflect[?].

If the Turkmen horses of today pass as rare, because of the Russian extermination related to a double cause (fear of the Turkemn revolts and the switch to higher production [?] related to the mechanization of the army), they were extremely numerous in the past. As well as the Barb and the Arab, and because they have similar qualities, with on top of that more size, they are among the horses which gave blood to the horses of Europe.
It is not to enter what Jean-Louis Gouraud calls the "Akhla-Teke sect" but quite simply to give recognition to these horses’ share in the history of the thoroughbred horses.

19. Jessica04/19/2007 15:53:54

Tabitha, thank for the translation, this is so interesting, we should really work harder on compiling the European early imports of Turks, we had some imported to Sweden to, will when I have time add a painting of a yellow Turk that was given to one of our kings if I am not wrong from the French Court.

20. Tabitha04/20/2007 02:56:38

Yes... it's really interesting. I was reading thruough it while translating, really remarquable. Certainly the pictures at his website are great. Certainly Le Curde looks to me very much like a Teke. It's great that Laurence wrote it down for us.

21. Laurence Bougault04/20/2007 06:26:32
Homepage: http://www.cheval-akhal-teke.com

Thank you Tabitha!! Much better as my english... No, Jessica, nothing good about Azerbaïdjan. Nobody speaking english. No e-mail address. Should write a letter but no time. I need to learn about a new job : stallion owner!! and only one month now before the foaling... Habiba has to be train as well. I'm alone for all this and have to work as well... I would love to go to Moscow and Piatigorsk this year. I'm not sure when it will be... Time is runing too fast!

1. Jessica01/29/2007 11:11:04

The gender differences in Tekes compared to other breeds I would say depends on what other breeds you compare with.
Would it be to another lighter riding horse breed like the TB's and the Arabians or to a warmblooded riding horse?
The universal gender differences is that while a stallion is more on and alert as well as quick to respond to aids, but might have difficulties in focusing and need more leadership skills in the rider, the mare is not as "on" as a stallion in energy level. The mares however, especially the alpha mares will test your leadership skills, maybe in another way but as much as a stallion. Mares can actually be harder to work with if they for some reason develop issues.
In the Teke breed that we see today neither mares nor stallions have been selected for rideability in the modern sense so to say.
Interestingly the warmbloods that due to the usage of AI and the breeding goal to produce top level sport horses, actually show stallions for many years now instead of a short testing period and then retirement to the breeding facility have dramatically improved the rideability in the stallions.
I doubt and challenge the fact that historically the stallions were used and therefore they would even today have a better rideability than the mares. The work with a breed is constant and the breed will change with the way it is selected.
My question is, what kind of temperament, character and rideability do we want to have in this breed in 20 years? I do not think we can sit back and relate to old historical tales when it comes to developing this breed, if we want it to be good for the riders and users of our market today we'd better study it and select for the traits needed to fulfil the needs.
I have a wonderful picture of Gelishikli under rider in my office, it shows his great temperament and the total harmony between him and the rider.
We must be very careful to educate new owners on what is acceptable for a Teke and not, it is far to easy to claim that bad temperament and rideability is a trait of the breed, instead of the truth that it is a fault in the breed.

2. Leonid01/30/2007 08:32:48
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

List of horses on this day for Teke Palmira
http://horsegames.ru/publication/?publicationtree_id=85

Конкурс "САМАЯ КРАСИВАЯ ЛОШАДЬ 2007"

Конкурс среди кобыл «ЛИЗЕТТ» назван в честь лошади, на которой Пётр Великий одержал важнейшую победу в Полтавском сражении и которая определила направление развития России. Ахалтекинская кобыла Лизетт является полноправным соавтором этой виктории, в которой не раз спасала жизнь Царю.

1. ЯСЕЛЬДА, буланая, 2004 года рождения, от Орлана и Янгылай, линии Гелишикли. Ясельда – Чемпионка Мира среди юниоров 2006 года, обладательница второй премии на конкурсе «Лучшая Лошадь – 2006» на шоу «Кубок Коннозаводчиков – «шаЭль». Ясельда – сестра двух Чемпионов Мира Ялантушхана в 2004 и Язайдыма в 2006 годах. Её отец Орлан – Чемпион породы 1988 года, символ конного завода «Ставропольский» последних 15-и лет. Мать Ясельды Янгылай удостоилась от В. П. Шамборанта эпитета «Квинтэссенция» породы.

2. ПРЕРИЯ, серая, 2005 года рождения, от Джейрана и Полтагуль, линии Еля. Это дебют. Отец этой восходящей звезды был Чемпионом России 2003 года, а мать одна из лучших маток Ставропольского завода.

3. САХНА, серая, 2005 года рождения, от Мургаба и Серенады, линии Посмана. Ещё одна дебютантка, урождённая в «Ставропольском». Её отец Мургаб, сам Чемпион России, заслуживает эпитета «Великий». Его потомство это без сомнения соль породы. Среди его детей такие великие лошади – Чемпионы, как Пехимдар, Ханбеглер, Генч.

4. ХЕВА шаЭль, вороная, 2005 года рождения, от Газыр шаЭля и Ажай шаЭль, линии Еля. Это уже состоявшаяся звезда на текинском небосводе. Хева шаЭль стала Чемпионкой Мира – 2006 среди кобылок–годовичков и эксперты предвещают её великое будущее. Её отец элегантный Газыр шаЭль – Чемпион Мира 2003 года, а мать – дочь замечательной Айханум, базовой матки конного завода имени В. Шамборанта.

5. ДЖЕННЕТ шаЭль, вороная, 2005 года рождения, от Газыр шаЭля и Алмагуль, линии Еля. Ещё одна шаэлевская звёздочка, ставшая второй вслед за своей полу сестрой Хевой на Чемпионате Мира – 2006. Вдвоем с сестрой они смотрелись на подиуме, как два прекрасных чёрных лебедя.

6. ХАННА шаЭль, золотисто буланая, 2005 года рождения, от Гаяза и Айханум, линии Посмана. Это первый балл юной звёздочки. Хана – последняя дочь легендарной Айханум, её последний подарок ахалтекинскому коннозаводству. Её отец Гаяз занимает лидирующие позиции в Топ группе ведущих жеребцов породы.


Конкурс среди жеребцов «ГЕОК ТЕПЕ» назван в честь боевого спутника легендарного русского полководца, покорителя Туркестана, освободителя Болгарии генерала Скобелева - ахалтекинского жеребца Геок Тепе.

1. ПЕХИМДАР, серый, 2001 года рождения, от Мургаба и Пампы, линии Посмана. Этот восхитительный горбоносый жеребец владеет званием Чемпиона России среди юниоров 2003 года. Он обладает утончённой породностью, свойственной лучшим детям Мургаба, а его мать Пампа, возможно, самая заслуженная матка Ставропольского завода. Её сыновья и внуки широко представлены на нашем шоу.

2. ХАНБЕГЛЕР, золотисто буланый, 2002 года рождения, от Мургаба и Пудокхан, линии Посмана. Этот жеребец заставляет поверить в нереальность земного происхождения текинцев. Будто отлитый из золота, гордый красавец. Ханбеглер – Чемпион России 2005 года.

3. ПРИНЦИП, гнедой, 2004 года рождения, от Пирахмеда и Платины, линии Гелишикли. Принцип дипломант «Кубка Коннозаводчиков – «шаЭль» и Чемпионата Мира в 2006 году. Этот жеребец обладает исключительным происхождением, оба его родителя являются Чемпионами породы.

4. УЗБОЙ, гнедой, 2005 года рождения, от Орлана и Джамалгуль. Это дебютное выступление последнего сына знаменитого Орлана, его «лебединая песня.

5. ШААР шаЭль, изабелловый, 2001 года рождения, от Гаяза и Аиды, линии Посмана. Шаар шаЭль это сложившаяся звезда шоу-рингов и выставок, имеющий своих преданных поклонников среди публики. Никого не может оставить равнодушным эта ожившая жемчужина, этот утончённый красавец из «Сказок тысячи и одной ночи». Такая лошадь является только в мечтах, унося своего седока в страну грёз. Шаар шаЭль Чемпион «Millionair Fair» 2005 года, дипломант «Кубка Коннозаводчиков – «шаЭль» 2004, 2005 и 2006 годов.

6. МАККА шаЭль, золотисто – буланый, 2004 года рождения, от Гаяза и Меланы, линии Посмана. Заводчики с надеждой ожидают дебют этой лошади на этом блестящем подиуме. Мака шаЭль воплощает собой мощь, капитальность и гармонию, свойственную его материнской линии Факир Пельвана в сочетании с изяществом, характерным для линии Посмана.

7. ШАММАЙ шаЭль, золотисто – буланый, 2005 года рождения, от Шаар шаЭля и Яламы, линии Посмана. Шаммай шаЭль поражает своими необыкновенно длинными линиями и совершенными формами. Несомненно, что «Текинская Пальмира» представит поклонникам «небесных» аргамаков новую мега-звезду. Подиум уже знаком с творчеством его матери – Яламы. Это её дочь от Гаяза Намус шаЭль Чемпионка Мира – 2005 и её сын от того же Гаяза Далай шаЭль Чемпион России среди юниоров в 2005 и Призёр Чемпионата Мира 2006 года.

8. ЧАКА шаЭль, золотисто – соловый, 2003 года рождения, от Газыр шаЭля и Гели, линии Еля. Чака шаЭль – дипломант «Кубка Коннозаводчиков - «шаЭль» в 2005 и в 2006 годах. Это любимчик публики, настолько он привлекателен и открыт для общения. Он создан, чтобы быть любимым. К общению с человеком он готов 24 часа в сутки. Такой лошади не страшно доверить даже маленького ребёнка.

9. ДУАГ шаЭль, золотисто – соловый, 2004 года рождения, от Газыр шаЭля и Джагали, линии Еля. Этот мощный элегантный жеребец является финалистом «Кубка Коннозаводчиков – «шаЭль» 2006 года. Он очень напоминает своего венценосного отца Чемпиона Мира 2003 года.

3. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/30/2007 12:44:55
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

Good luck Leonid!!
I hope you take lots of pictures!
I really want to see both Chaka Shael and Duag Shael. Wish I could go in person!!
Can you take videos? Is it going to be televised? I would love to pay for a tape!!

4. Leonid01/30/2007 12:51:13
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

I'll try to work! Wellcome to visit this show.

5. Jessica01/31/2007 11:27:04

Kerri, I think you should really try to travel and see as many Tekes in the flesh as possible, Russia is a good starting point and from there Europe is close! The web is really good and bad as for many the instant knowledge you can collect from web sources is one dimensional and horses are so much more than that! I do hope that the web will be used as a one of the sources to gather knowledge and not the only source. Also as we recently saw on Wikipedia, the information should always be checked before it is republished.

6. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/31/2007 11:32:48
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

I can't wait to go to Russia - we are planning to go next summer. This summer I hope to see as many Akhal-Tekes as possible in North America. I have a new baby and it makes traveling around a bit hard right now so I am trying to get as much knowledge as I can from books and the web. Thanks so much for this website as it is a major information contributor!!

7. Jessica01/31/2007 11:52:59

If you get as far south as Florida and can take the, balmy summer weather you are welcome to visit us.

8. Leonid01/31/2007 12:51:15
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

List of "Teke Palmira" rises:

7. ОСМАН-ГУЛИ, буланая, 2004, от Михмана и Оперы, линия Факир Пельвана. Ее сестры Омелия, Олимпия и Омега – Чемпионки и Резерв Чемпионки Мира. Ее мать – Опера считается одной из самых ценных кобыл в породе. Отец – Михман – один из немногочисленных детей Максуда, сына известнейшего ипподромного бойца – Омара. Осман-Гули дебютировала в 2005 году на Чемпионате Мира в Москве, где получила вторую премию среди кобылок-годовичков.

8. САГАЛИ, буланая, 2005, от Гранд-Кули и Сеиль, линия Топорбая. Это одна из немногочисленных представительниц этой старой туркменской линии, одной из самых редких в ахалтекинской породе. Она лучшая дочь своего отца Гранд-Кули, который использовался в выездке по малым ездам в Москве и обладает шикарнейшими движениями. Ее мать Сеиль – лучшая дочь изабеллового Екемена, вывезенного из Узбекистана. Она была третьей на Чемпионате Мира в Москве в 2003 году. Сагали – лучшая кобылка из ставки 2005 года в конном заводе Ахалт-Сервис.

http://horsegames.ru/publication/?publicationtree_id=85

9. Darya01/31/2007 16:19:47
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Glad to see AS has joined. Grand Kuli has died in December by the way.

1. Leonid10/04/2005 01:39:12
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

You know I created three years ago my own show at Equiros exebition "Breeder's cup "Shael", wich support most of others breeders. And I put some very important expierance.
1. Judges: Ryabova - I trust to her opinion very much, undependently from our interrelations;
A. Shtorkh - fotoartist wich made beautifullist pictures of akhalteke horses during forty years. His oppinion for us is important.
A. Glukharyov - artist, wich paint akhalteke horses twenty years. His painting for me is reference point for breeding.
And some free breeders wich have service with breed not less then ten years and wich produced even one regional champion.
2. Culture of show.
2.1. Participate in the show must be requiring payment. This sum must to add to awards.
At the beginning must be preliminary estimate, where judges determ final groupes. The level of choice determ college of judges (I think not more then 20 horses in one nomination).
2.2. I suggest such nominations:
- two years old filly;
- two years old coalts;
- open for mares (two years old conclude) without limitation in age and titlies;
- open for stallion (two years old conclude) without limitation in age and titlies;
- absolut (four horses by two finalists of to last nominations go to ring together).
3. Order of rings.
3.1. Horses wich were choiced must go to ring alone with one groom and simple ring bridle. Horses must have cut manes by zero. Groom must place horse in stand at attention, then to set at liberty. For each horse not more then 5 min.
3.2. Judges must judge independently and must value open for audience. (like figure skating). At result we put ordinance of horses.
Further (like hockey NHL) first goes to ring with last for compare, second with next to last and so on. Then quorter final, half final and final. Advantage in choice of pares has best in ordinance. Perhapse to do comforting compares;
4. General. We must remember that we do it not only for ourself, but for our audience. That must be SHOW, but not breeder's party only.

1. Nickie11/13/2005 19:05:39
Homepage: http://voodoosroom.blogspot.com

I'm so glad to have found you! I love Tekes and I'll be back!

2. Darya09/02/2006 15:04:56

Jessica, this is incredible, I was reading what you wrote and I thought: this is exactly how I felt when I looked at some breed description books in UK as well. Such problem is with every book I seen and not only of Edwards. This seems to be very common and it hurts! If they call one book encyclopedia, shouldn't they stick to the facts?!!

1. Heather Mahoney08/11/2006 10:19:26

I am loving his action shot! He has a beautiful collected look to his musculature, even while jumping. Nice photo! Leonid - I am more and more wanting to find my way to your stud to see more of these beautiful animals. It may not be the immediate future, but the idea is certainly wedged in the back of my mind...
Heather

2. Leonid08/11/2006 13:14:57
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Wellcome!!!

3. Ingrid Hovik08/16/2006 06:09:55

Thanks Heather Nice to hear that someone thinks he looks nice -he also do his work nice

4. ingrid08/25/2006 03:18:34

Saad is now qualified for 1start eventing

5. Jessica 08/25/2006 15:28:02

Before I can send you my congratulations, I', afraid that I will have to ask you what you mean by 1start!

6. Ingrid09/01/2006 15:33:37

ups....I meant 1star eventing

1. Leonid05/07/2007 09:56:11
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Thank you very much!!!!!!!!!!

1. Blanca09/03/2006 15:29:04

Thanks a lot, Leonid!

Definitely, Equiros deserves a visit!

Who is No. 16 of the Planernaya show? I guess No. 3 is Dragun. Somebody told me he was dead...

2. Leonid09/04/2006 02:13:15
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Blanca, I don't understand what means №16. I don't know, that Dradun was dead.

3. Blanca09/04/2006 04:24:45

I mean the horse who bears a badge with No. 16 in his head...

4. Leonid09/04/2006 05:35:21
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

That was Garayusup (Manghyt-Oprava)

5. Blanca09/04/2006 07:47:25

What an excellent stallion was Mangyt...able to produce such incredible offspring

6. Leonid09/04/2006 09:53:21
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Only this one.

7. Blanca09/04/2006 10:11:08

Well, I like also Margush, for instance.

8. Leonid09/04/2006 14:42:11
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

I did not see this horse.

9. Heather Mahoney09/05/2006 11:43:03

Leonid,
Thank you for the photos! They only made me more regretful to not have been able to attend this year, but MORE determined to be there next year!

Blanca,
Funny that you should ask about Garayusup. It was coming across his picture that first attracted me to the breed, and led me down the path of learning about the amazing Akhal-Teke! My only complaint about him is that apparently he is a crypto. :-

The pictures were wonderful, and thank you, Jessica, for making them so readily available for viewing!

Heather

10. Leonid09/05/2006 12:15:00
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

What means cripto?

11. Todd Keith09/05/2006 12:19:14
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com

Mean a one baller!

12. Leonid09/05/2006 12:31:14
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

It is eanough for football game.
I don't understand why peaple try to find spots on the Sun.

13. Heather Mahoney09/05/2006 13:39:43

Leonid,
Please do not take offense. I think him a gorgeous animal, and it is very true that as I said it was Garayusup's picture that led me to explore AT's. We may have different philosophies about breeding and "defects" (the judging of which we may disagree upon), but arguing puts me at a great disadvantage, as you are established in the AT world, and I am nobody, and must try and keep you as my friend until I get to visit Moscow next year!
Thank you again for the Equiros pictures. They made me quite jealous of anyone who managed to attend.
Heather

14. Leonid09/05/2006 13:57:24
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Heather are you american?

15. Heather Mahoney09/05/2006 14:11:00

My family rather recently emigrated to the US, in comparison to most in America, but I was in fact born here. With our current president, being American is not something I can currently feel very proud about (and that's all the political bashing I'll stoop to), but yes I am. My dad's family moved here from Scotland, and my mother's from Sicily.

Am I now on your black list for mentioning crypto about Garayusup? I hope we can amicably agree to disagree.

Heather

16. Leonid09/05/2006 14:17:17
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

America has a greatist traditions in the thourobred breeding. Ask this breeders about criptos.

17. Heather Mahoney09/05/2006 14:35:54

Here is my personal opinion, just briefly, and I will preface it by saying that I because it is a personal opinion, I am not claiming to be "right" in all matters:

When I was a kid my family was involved with Bullmastiff dogs. We had a beautiful male that won many competitions (like Westminster, etc.) and had beautiful offspring that also won many international competitions. However, the male's line (despite their huge success) had a pattern of cardio-myopothy, and many of them died at the age of 6 or 7. For that reason my dad would not breed them, and many people were upset because they were so successful as working, obedience and show animals.

For me, before I would invest in the offspring of a crypto, I would want to research the possible impact that such a characteristic might have down the road. For instance, are their other more serious health issues that may be commonly seen with cryptos, or is it a benign characteristic? It does not mean Garayusup is not a beautiful successful horse. Only that for my own purposes I would have to learn much more about any possible consequences of crypto-orchidism before I invested in that line. And, to be fair, science may eventually show that there are no serious side effects to a crypto, but it cannot be considered 100% "normal" and therefore is reason (to me) to pause and consider.

Heather

18. Leonid09/05/2006 14:47:50
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Go ahead! In this way you never get Yazaydym, you will lose in breeding Karayusup and so on.

19. Heather Mahoney09/05/2006 15:16:27

Leonid,
First, surely you recognize there is a difference between saying "I would never" and "I would stop to first consider." I am not saying I would NEVER invest in their offspring - only that I first would have to consider many factors to feel secure. Perhaps, you could tell me that in your personal experience you see no additional consequences to cryptos, if you feel this is so, and it may be.
Secondly, do you support or discourage the investor from trying to educate themselves as much as possible before passing final judgment? For instance, I will readily admit that I am no expert in AT's, but my experience with other breeds makes me eager to learn much about ALL aspects of this breed (including the occurrence of crypto) before I feel educated enough to take on the task of actively looking for an investment. While I admire your work with AT's, and have heard you spoken well of among other AT breeders, it is discouraging to feel that you think my desire to be educated on this subject is to my detriment.
Heather

20. Maria09/05/2006 17:46:00

Heather,

I think it's good when people want to get educated about the breed. But let's put things our education into perspective.

Garayusup is one of the most spectacular representatives of the AT breed living today. He is the only off-spring of his parents and as his sire is dead, the chances of breeding a horse comparable to Garayusup are lowered. It is reasonable to discuss whether criptos should or should not be encouraged in the breed in general. Nobody can forbid a healthy discussion.

But why do these things get brought up in connection with a particular animal who, surely, should be bred, if at all possible, simply because he himself is so exceptional! Even if in general the breed might want to discourage critos.

Just the other day someone said to me, when I enthused about seeing Garayusup live at the Moscow show:"I heard he cannot be bred". I had to laugh because Alexander Klimuk was telling me at the show that, although he had sold Garayusup to a friend, he is happy that he is able to send mares to him every year. And his off-spring will be racing this year for the first time.

I was bowled over by seeing Garayusup live. He is a stunning achievement of modern AT breeding. How such perfection was achieved and how can at least some of it can be repeated should be the subject of our discussion.

Let's leave criptorchism for another, more general topic - dogs, horses....

21. Jessica09/05/2006 18:49:48

The moment you see the perfect Teke you know it, this image, this feeling will stay with you for the rest of your life. The best examples of this breed are more than horses, this you will know and feel once you have met one of these magnificent steeds.
There are no other horse breeds in the world that have been called so many poetical names by writers from the Antiques, from China. The sacred horse, the heavenly horse, the elite horse, the rainbow colored horse with the shimmer of the sunrise...
Seeing and feeling an excellent Teke is poetry. It is beautiful.
I belong to the lucky ones that have seen and felt a few moments of poetry with these steeds.
I think that all of us that have experienced Garaysup feel that the faults he might have are all erased by his greatness.
If Garayusup got Heather interested in this breed and made her start her quest for her Teke its great and if she is now exploring the breed from her own references that's her way and she should be respected for that.
In some western countries breeding cryptorchids is tabu.
Within the Teke breed it is not, within the Teke breed no horse is tabu to breed.
Maybe for some the knowledge that a horse has some for you unacceptable flaws, will destroy the moment of poetry and then the quest must go on, we all know that there is a Teke for everyone!

22. Leonid09/05/2006 23:19:54
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

I sent here pictures of tekes. Between them is Karayusup. Somebody says: "he is exelent but ..." And begin theme which is far from this heavenly horses. If you are artist - wellcome, if you are accountant - you can count balls of cows, dogs, wethers all your life. You can improove balls of them to infinity.

23. Leonid09/05/2006 23:36:08
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Thanks to such lovers of akhalteke, you need to pay for breed license for sire now. In that time, no one breeder in Russia does not do this payment.

24. Blanca09/06/2006 05:24:43

Interestingly enough, and after many discussions on the subject, I still don't know what are the problems of a crypto…therefore, I don't have any reason to be against it, although I wouldn't buy a crypto stallion knowing that to breed with him is forbidden in any Western country.

AT horses are a living piece of art. I agree with Jessica; for me, it could be as –or even more- stimulating to see a beautiful AT than the best music or painting.

But, above all, they are animals. And as it is artistically very stimulating to see a good AT, it is very sad to see an unsound horse leading a hard life. We need to be responsible for what we produce. Therefore, I'm happy to see that there are breeding rules in most of the modern studbooks. Another powerful reason –more than the horse welfare, for sure- is the need to protect their markets, just as Louis Vuitton, Hitachi and the Rioja wineries are doing.

These rules are new in the AT world and we are not happy about it. What would be important is to see if we are not happy about these rules because of the rules themselves or also because of the aledged partiality and bad performance of the stud book management that is imposing the rules…

25. Leonid09/06/2006 06:20:55
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Blanka, explane me please, why are you depend from rules of Western countries? You can get papers from Russia for your offspring. And your local rules for akhaltekes must conform to our general rules.

26. Leonid09/06/2006 06:35:33
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Sorry Blanca, why do you give an example another Studbooks? We have bussines with pure blood breed and Pure Blood StudBook. Another meantion absolutly. Only one reason - PURE BLOOD.

27. Todd09/06/2006 07:40:25
Homepage: http://www.beknazar.com

Leonid,

What is the criteria to get a stallion license?
Is it only $$$$? Will licenses only be given to Elite stallions?
Stallions recommended for breeding? Will foals born from non licensed stallions be allowed into the studbook? This is interesting! If the only criteria to be allowed into the purebred studbook is that the foal is a purebred, what is the purpose of a stallion license???
If a license gives no extra merit to a stallion why pay?
We have already seen the mistakes in the 10th studbook, how will stallion licenses help the breed? BTW, I finally got a reply from Chagorta (thanks Sigrid). Grigori confirmed that Kirgi died in 1977 and so cannot be the sire of Delegatka we discussed on my blog previously.... Will stallion licenses help the studbook from making such mistakes again???
Todd

28. Leonid09/06/2006 07:53:03
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

I can not answer to you Todd, I don't pay for this and have not such questions.

29. Heather Mahoney09/06/2006 09:47:29

Jessica,
Thank you for your respectful comments. I certainly did not mean to start such a heated debate, and should have been more mindful of my statement.

Maria,
I was NOT aware of Garayusup's unique position as a breeder, without a living sire, and hope you will forgive my ignorance on this. As I said, I am relatively new to AT's and am still learning about the primary lines, their history, and their impact on today's successful AT population. As you surely know, there is not much in the way of comprehensive literature on the Akhal-Teke, as there is for other breeds, and the learning curve is somewhat slowed when most of your education on the breed is gleaned from discussions with breeders (the opportunity for which is few and far between) and on this blog. Secondly, I have only seen Garayusup in photos... not in the flesh, and for me, it is hard to be as inspired as you and many others obviously are without that personal interaction. He IS an amazing animal, even judging from photos alone, and if you are happy to breed with crypto, you have every right to do so.

Leonid,
I am not, as you said above, trying to be an accountant. It is the artistry of this breed that has attracted me in the first place. That they are magnificent animals - Garayusup included - is not up for debate. Please understand, however, that all of my previous experience in international horse affairs is within the warmblood world of dressage, eventing and jumping. This is where I currently have familiarity and feel knowledgeable, and during my lifetime cryto-orchidism has always been, as Jessica said, a taboo. If this is something that is not considered detrimental within the AT world, that is something I will have to adjust to, and again, will have to make my own judgments on. I think that Maria's point was well taken, when she suggested that exceptional individuals like Garayusup may be bred to preserve their outstanding qualities, while not encouraging cryto-orchidism breed-wide. Our disagreement aside, the point is that the Akhal-Teke is an outstanding breed with a lot to offer the international community. But as their sphere of influence expands, controversies between accepted cultural norms will arise, and there must be a mechanism through which the breeder and investor can come to an amicable agreement, with full disclosure of the "characteristics" (such as crypto) that exist within the individual's line. I wasn't kidding when I said that whether we are in 100% agreement or not on all issues, I would keep you as my friend, as you are certainly to be respected within the AT community, and I very much hope to make it to your stud during next year's Equiros.

Best wishes to all,
Heather

30. Leonid09/07/2006 02:04:49
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Heather, wellcome!
And try to understan this horses bred during thousands years, like pure blood breed whith rules, where was only one reason "PURE BLOOD". When World became open, western peaple came to us and began to look at this ancient horse with warmblood eyes. They bring biotekhnologies, estimations without races. We are afraid of this and must protect our ancient traditions.

31. Blanca09/07/2006 04:04:48

Huummm, Leonid, I'm going to invite you to Europe to see our PURE BLOOD

32. Leonid09/07/2006 10:14:29
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Thank you very much.

33. Blanca09/07/2006 11:44:27

Maybe we could organise your coming to see my horses and for you to make a presentation on your breeding plans to the breeders of the area

34. Leonid09/07/2006 14:10:01
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Thank you very much agein. It is some unexpectedly.

35. Heather Mahoney09/07/2006 15:19:39

Leonid,
Your point is well taken. Even though I am most familiar with warmbloods, I would not want to see AT's be bred to fit warmblood confirmation. It is their extreme type that I find so interesting and alluring in the first place. However, it is difficult to come from an arena in which your are often offered the convenience and relative security of seeing genetic and physical tests on an individual that can reveal a lot about their breeding before you make the sometimes pricey journey to see them in person, to the very traditional world of AT breeding where this is not the norm. It doesn't mean you are wrong and I am right - only that it requires that you are much more knowledgable and able to trust the breeder you are working with to be honest about possible abnormalities or defects in the line. For those like myself not used to the non-western way of doing things... give us time and a little experience, and we will learn.

Blanca,
Where in Europe are you located? If you drag Leonid out, I hope you will make a general announcement, as Eaurope is much closer to me than Russia.

36. maria09/08/2006 09:26:01

Leonid in Europe is a great idea - I am all for it. But, Heather, seeing Leonid in Europe is no substitute to going to Russia to see the best horses - it's only another 3 hours on the plane

37. Heather Mahoney09/08/2006 09:33:39

True, True. I have family in Europe though, and so can always find a place to crash thereabouts! I don't know where Blanca is located however.

I'm quite serious, Maria, about attending Equiros next year. I've already filed for my daughter's passport (she's only 1 and doesn't have one yet), and intend to arrange some visits then. I told my husband he may come or stay as he pleases, but I'll be there! Are you located in Europe as well, or Russia? It sounded like you were present at this years Equiros.
Cheers,
Heather

38. maria09/08/2006 09:40:52

Heather, I live in Devon, UK. I think you said you have a Cornish connection - that's the next county before you hit the Atlantic on the map. I attended Moscow Meeting this year for the first time though I had been to Russia before and seen Leonid's horses at his stud outside Moscow, as well as some of them in training in Moscow. My proudest moment was to ride for 10 minutes in walk the marvellous dressage stallion Babakhan. I have not been to Equiros yet but am intenting to go next year. I also will one day try to go to Dagestan to offer an English carrot to Garayusup. Don't worry about the logistics, a lot of us have been to Moscow and will help you with the practical arrangements. Taking babies abroad should not be a problem, it does them good to travel.

39. maria09/08/2006 09:42:59

Heather, I am also, of course, a happy smiling owner of one of Leonid's horses

40. Blanca09/08/2006 10:28:39

Heather, I'm in Luxembourg. You're very much welcome to come.

Leonid, the EuroTeke crew will be waiting for you!

41. Heather Mahoney09/08/2006 11:42:46

Maria,
I'm familiar with Devon, but haven't been there. My mom and I are planning to be in the UK over Spring break this school year or early summer for holiday, so perhaps I could arrange to come see your AT?? We were planning to go to Oban, but I'm sure we could arrange a swing south. Thank you for your encouragement in traveling to Russia. I'm sure I will make ample use of your help and suggestions when the time comes! I'm hoping it is child friendly, as I like to take my daughter along... my parents always took us everywhere. However, my mom usually travels along as "nanny" so more serious business can be child-free.

Blanca,
I don't have any family in the Luxembourg area (they're all in the UK, Sicily or Hungary) but that's no problem. I'm hoping to be all over Europe next summer. You see, I am a teacher, and due to a later school year start mandated by the government, we will have an extra long summer next year, so it's the perfect excuse to take an extended holiday.

42. Maria09/09/2006 03:29:06

Heather, of course, you are welcome to visit us in Devon and to meet Mualim.

43. Darya09/09/2006 07:03:55

That would be great if Heather could come down to Devon. I could come visit at the same time and we all could have some great time. I could bring my stallion across as well, don't know about the mare, she could be too heavily pregnant for that. There's Devon county show on 17, 18 and 19th of May 2007 I want to attend too. Would be good to time it all together.

44. Heather Mahoney09/09/2006 17:27:28

Darya,
I don't think we're out of school quite yet on the May dates, but I'll check. I'm sure I'll be as ready as my students for vacation by that point! But I'll definitely keep that in mind.

Maria,
Thanks for the welcome! At this point we are focussed on seeing as many Tekes as possible, as the only we've seen in person yet are Todd and Jessica's. Lots of photos of course, but there aren't many AT's in Florida, much to my dismay!

Heather

45. Maria09/09/2006 18:46:27

Darya, we should definitely do Devon County! I am so glad to have finally found someone wanting to promote the breed in the UK! As they say in Russian: "Odin v pole ne voin" - I invite you, bloggers, to give me a good poetic translation into English of this Russian expression (or into Swedish, Spanish, German or French, for that matter!).

46. Leonid09/10/2006 00:50:48
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Маша, не люблю я эту поговорку. Как раз Один и есть Воин, остальные всего лишь группа сопровождения. Просто этот Один должен осознать, что он Воин, что ему это дано.
Я люблю другую поговорку: "Даже маленький рот может сказать большое слово".
Так держать!!!

47. Darya09/10/2006 03:47:39

Thank you for all your support. Leonid, that should be your moto. That really suits your personality. Really made me laugh.
Maria, I wrote a request to Devon county Friday night, waiting for reply, I guess I should get it on Monday. I'll let you know. I think it is really selfish to love the breed and keep it locked away as a jewel of some sort. I'm so in love with the breed I want to share it with other people and infect them all with it!!! I think it's great!
Heather, be good if you could make it for the show, I really enjoyed it last year and it is just that something extra for you to see. I realise though it might not be the right time. But I though I let you know anyways, so you can decide yourself.

48. Heather Mahoney09/11/2006 09:30:15

Darya,
We shall see. I would like very much to make it, but there is a lot on my plate for this next year. Early summer is pretty certain though, and I will not be hurried then, which is nice.

Leonid,
I have not head that saying, but I like it! I think I tend to fit into this category... my small mouth sometimes has the tendancy to thinks it's bigger than it is. It is a curse and a blessing, as sometimes it has gotten me farther than I could have guessed... and other times it has gotten me into a lot of trouble!

Heather

49. Leonid09/11/2006 10:08:10
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

We must listen to everybody!

1. Portia02/01/2007 16:00:18

It is a hard decision to make and any of us who have owned more than a few horses have been in the position to make this hard decision. I am sad Barbaro will not be with us but I am relieved he will no longer suffer. I think it is hard for people to understand horses are different than us. Their main basis in life is to be able to move and if they can no longer do that comfortably and quickly it must be very frightening to them. Well that is my standing on this and I am normally not this depressing but it is something I feel strongly about. We should all take a moment of silence for such a great horse and be happy he graced us with his presence for a little while.

2. Jessica D.02/02/2007 10:20:32

He has a yearling FULL brother out there. He's not named yet though I hear...so there is hope. It is nice to know that he has a living relative around that we might get to see do what he hadn't been able to do...maybe win a triple crown....you never know ;)

1. Amrita Ibold09/07/2005 12:13:25
Homepage: http://www.akhalteke.cc

I agree it would be nice to move on....but one has to understand the past.....
As I understand it, Phil Case started the first registry. But here is one thing he was not first in, he sold 4 mares to the US market, telling the buyers they were pure bred registerd wit MAAK horses. This happened before I was involved with this breed. Years down the road when Tatiana came to grade the horses people were told they had part bred horses, and all their off spring was not elegable for the stud book. So Phil created a category 2 in his registry. This is still today where people get confused. Because it is deceiving...in Russia a category 2 is still a pure bred, just not as good an animal. Phil gave up the association. Then the association did away with catergory 2, saying it was misleading, and Phil wanted to sue, and take the association back.
Not too long ago I got a letter from Germany with a sales list of horses Phil once took to Germany, half of the horses were being listed as pure breds, but where breedings of the non pure mares...
So as you can see, yes, it would be nice to forget and drop the past, BUT, there are some issues that people still struggle with.

2. Jessica 09/08/2005 21:11:47

I am not involved in the past and so are many with me. The Akhal-Teke breed already has a mother stud book that has set up the rules for what a pure bred Akhal-Teke is and what the breed is supposed to look like. No single breeder ( it doesn't matter if they start an association or not) can themselves set up their own rules and call the horses Akhal-Tekes, then they have to find out another name for a breed they create. It is as simple as that. I as a new breeder in the USA is not interested in the old history of a few partbreds and wish that the people involved in the associations that claim that the promote the breed do so instead of living in the past.

3. Katrina O'Neal09/11/2005 10:30:52

Yes, but what about Teke breeders here in America who do not feel the holder of the Russian studbook are doing what's best for the breed? There are many who feel that having a single person directing the future of the breed is dangerous to say the least. Therefore it is important that different options be explored.

Many people feel that, like every other association in America, it is important that members have a vote, which MAAK does not offer.

After attending a "grading" by the Russian representative here in America, I was not impressed by the system. The horses were not consistantly gaited, even though a Teke characteristic is suppose to be their unique trot. The bite was not checked and incorrect legs were not penalized.

This is yet another issue the American breeders grapple with.

I agree it is a fragmented system, but the Akhal-Teke will never be a mainstream breed.

Just because a country has a different registry does not mean they are "inventing" a different breed. Off the top of my head I can think of many cases where certain breeds of horses & dogs were represented by as many as three different registries in one country. All had different rules and different standards, but they represented the same breed.

And here in America there is an AMERICAN Hanoverian Society, AMERICAN Trakehner Assoc., AMERICAN Warmblood Society, etc. These are all separate and distinct registries who keep separate and distinct studbooks from the German registries. Their rules are different and not every horse from one will go in the other.

I agree that breeders need to focus on the future of the Akhal-Teke breed, but IMHO there is much that can be improved upon concerning the current system. I suspect many American breeders feel the same, therein some of the conflict.

Katrina O'Neal

4. FLORA09/11/2005 20:27:49

Pure breds are PURE. Partbreds are just that. PART. If you want a purebred, get the money and BUY ONE. If you want to breed, buy purebreds, and make sure they are the best horses possible concerning conformation and type. STOP MESSING AROUND WITH THE PARTBREDS, WISHING YOU COULD MAKE THEM PURE, OR PUT IN THE PUREBRED STUDBOOK. IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY WITH YOUR PARTBRED HORSE, SELL IT. IF YOU WANT A PUREBRED, BUY ONE. This is the horse business, breed registrys are for the benefit of the BREED, not the owners little psyches. Its a mean business and buyer beware.

5. Katrina O'Neal09/12/2005 15:14:49

Flora ~

Pure defined as....DNA'ed? Hmmm,nope. How 'bout bloodtested? Uhhh, nope.

Purity defined by one person's opinion and decision...Yep! Show me ANY irrefutable proof these horses were impure and I will shut up. There is none, and in fact there is a fair amount of proof that some of them ARE.

What I want to breed are good Tekes with less genetic faults then I am seeing. And to think that registries are always for the good of the horse is a REAL dream. They aren't many times. If a registry does not have some form of strict quality control, they are NOT for the good of the breed.

Qtr. Horses: HYPP
Arab: SCID
Warmbloods:OCD


What about the AKC ~ how many breeds has that registry ruined?

I could go on and on. In each case the registries could have stopped these problems early on because they knew the genetic roots (less so in OCD than in HYPP), but they didn't want the bad press.

But thanks for your sweet and well informed comments anyway.

Katrina

6. Dasha09/04/2006 21:10:33
Homepage: http://www.akhalteke.homestead.com

Well, I think it is important to remember that Akhal Teke horses have originated in Turkmenistan and Russia.
I think it`s important to have governing association who holds most of historical records and maintains the rules. It does not matter if it is good or bad it`s the authority which makes final decision.
Part bred horses should not be included in the stud book. They are part breds. Why not try to train them and show how well part bred ATs can do in the show world? I am sure will be enough interest in breeding from other breeds. What is the purpose of including part bred horse in the pure bred registry?
I agree with Jessica that it`s silly to fight over who is the purest and most original when I only saw two articles last year in publications about Akhal Tekes.
It`s not serious to fight over small things when there is limited market for Akhal Tekes in the US. Not enough horses showing results or even being trained. The reason for battles is the amount of horses which I assume can not be sold due to the lack of awareness for the breed and lack of performance results.
Why not combine the efforts?

1. Hans-Jurg Buss01/10/2007 19:19:35

That is the first issue there I must admit: hey, I just do not know what is right! I refer to my posting in the other thread and to the posting of Maria. Besides the question of practical control of approval mechanism, why should it theoretically be wrong to try to eliminate "untypey" horses or for me more important horses with genetical defects from studbook? I would concentrate on genetical defects, not type or measurments or conformation. Can you in TB or Arab studbook really inscribe horses with severe defects, just because you have made offsprings, which probably have the same defects? Is that good for the breed?

2. shael01/11/2007 03:40:32
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

There are defects or not, must be only one criteria - purity. Determination of defects is another story.

3. Robert van Driel01/11/2007 04:09:58

Hello everyone,

My name is Robert van Driel from The Netherlands and I am the proud owner of an Akhal Teke Mare since November 2005.

To add to this interesting discussion; I think that all pure bred horses should be registered, but maybe not all of them should be recorded as approved breeding stock. In the Netherlands we have seen in several dog breeds that pure bred dogs are allowed as breeding stock because they have the right papers although they suffer from hereditary illnesses like hip problems or even eyes falling out of the socket. In the Dutch Welsh A pony breed, value is being placed upon small ears and large round eyes, but not at all on sports ability. In the Welsh circles it is even said that if a pony is not good enough for the show, it is by definition a sports pony…..

In the very successful Dutch KWPN sport horse breed however, stallions are only approved as breeding stallions after a long period of use by the breeding organization, which tests the horses on character and sports abilities. Employees of this organization tests and grades the horses.

Because of the small size of the population of Akhal Tekes and because they are not really concentrated in one area, it probably is not a practical solution. I would however appreciate it if a list of Akhal Teke stallions would be available not only mentioning their grading, but also with other characteristics of the breed like smooth gaits, character and colour.

Small breeders would certainly benefit from this. Naturally, all Akhal Teke stallions should be made available by allowing artificial insemination within the breed.

4. Tabitha01/11/2007 04:29:55

Jessica, Don't know if this belongs in this subject or in your "warmblood"topic.

MAAK is classifying horses on their parentage also (that helped in getting my horse a low classification too). But doesn't this limit the gene pool of the breed?
Because ofcourse.. if you want your horse to be registered as Elite, which probably most breeders want then you should breed your horse out of 2 Elite parents and voil■: an Elite Akhal-Teke. No one is going to want to breed to a stallion below Elite grading anymore. And how much stallions do have Elite grading?

Now based on the other points the grading can result as lower, but having a high parentage grade certainly pushes up the classification.

If your horse's parents weren't graded by MAAK or are class I (or were class I in the old situation but have now been placed in a lower class due to the more strict grading rules) your horses automatically gets low points for this (as did mine).

But isn't it so that out of purebred moderate healthy Tekes can come purebred outstanding healthy Tekes with outstanding talents?


As long as your AT is purebred, typical, has no defects and does have sports ability (imho wished desires in an AT) then why throw it out of the stud book based on height and parentage?

5. maria01/11/2007 06:14:35

Hello Robert, Welcome to the blog! I have a connection with the Netherlands and it is good to know there are new AT owners there. Where did you get your mare? Tell us more about her. It's very interesting to hear your thoughts on KWPN. Some members of this blog have been considering for a while what the best approach would be for European AT as far as registration, approval for breeding etc is concerned. I will try to put some thoughts down later - got to do some work now

6. Jessica01/11/2007 08:27:46

Hans-Jürg, when you have an international umbrella organisation that approves national studbooks like the TB and the Arabians the international umbrella organisation will understand and respect the national laws that regulates horse breeding. This means that if purity is the criteria, any pure horse that produces will be inscribed into the studbook, but in some countries a purebred animal will not be allowed to be used for breeding due to for example defects.
A TB that by its registration is pure and thereby allowed to race in Sweden for example, might have such defects that it will not be allowed to breed in Sweden, the horse can, however breed in other countries for the studbook. The national rules will not challenge purity in breeds with closed studbooks merely the right to produce. For the AT breed in Sweden purebred animals that are elite or class I might not be allowed to breed due to defects. So when you look for a stallion for example you will always have to be aware of your national rules that will always overrule the studbook rules in the sense of the right to breed. As a buyer it might also be of interest to look at the national rules in order to look for a place where strict rules for producing sound horses are applied, this will give you an indication of the quality of the horses produced under the national rules.
For warmbloods that mostly approve each others studbooks a KWNP stallion not approved in Holland due to for example OCD findings can look for approval with another studbook and produce for that studbook and so to say "change breed". A very good producer of warmbloods can also be approved by several other studbooks. The TB and the Arabian studbooks are also approved by the warmblood studbooks but not the AT studbook.

7. Jessica01/11/2007 13:04:55

Robert, you brought up some interesting dilemmas for breeds with closed studbooks that were founded originally to conserve and improve a type that has been evolved due to a specified usage and environment. The question is how do we conserve the type but still make sure that the breed we preserve is attractive to the market?

How much changes or wide type range do we allow within the breed to make sure that the breed is improving within the frame of what characterize the breed?

Purity is the only studbook criteria for the Arabian and the TB, but purity alone is not the reason to why those breeds are some of the biggest and most popular breeds in the world today.
It is interesting though that one of them is known to be the fastest horse in the world and the other is known to be the most beautiful horse in the world.

8. Jessica01/11/2007 13:28:05

Tabitha, I think the pedigree grading is very complex to understand and interpret, as the gradings are dynamic and subject to change at any time the pedigree gradings should be equally subject to change. The fact that there are no differences made in the classification system between estimated breeding value and breeding value as well as no once-in-a-lifetime classifications make it more or less floating. If you come from a culture where classifications are made once for EBV and later continoulsy but with a system of presenting the values clear what is the EBV (constant) and BV (changing).
Example: EBV classification for stallions is B or AB. BV classifications are kassated, C, A or Elite.
If the grading system limits the genepool or not I would say depends on the frames of what is accepted within a breed.
The grading system is used to indicate what individuals should be used according to the breed standard. If the criteria for elite gradings would be narrow the effect would be lack of genetic diversity. Within our breed we work with stallion lines that are supposed to represent different traits and thereby represent breeds within the breed, the differences accepted and approved within the lines would improve the genetic diversity.

9. Hans-Jurg Buss01/11/2007 14:12:38

Jessica, to bring my question to the point: In TB and Arab "umbrella" general studbook pure horses with genetical defects will be inscribed in the general studbook as long as that is not prevented by a national regulation. In that case however, a horse may be inscribed in the studbook of another country and thus be accepted in the umbrella general studbook. Is that correct representation of actual situation?

10. Jessica01/12/2007 09:35:07

Hans-J■rg, there is no general studbook for these breeds, there are national studbooks under umbrella organisations that approve national registries and studbooks that conform with the rules. But yes, a horse that has a genetical defect that would not be approved in one country could be approved in another countries' studbook for the same breed. WAHO is the umbrella organisation for Arabians and for now I cannot remember the name of the umbrella for the TB.
Note also that different countries list different defects as genetical.

11. Robert van Driel01/13/2007 08:23:53

Hello Jessica,


First of all, I think that a horse sound be sound of mind and body. If not, then don’t breed with it even though if it is pure bred and the foals will be registered in the studbook automatically.

The Akhal Teke breed caught my attention because of a picture of the stallion Kambar with the beautiful shape and incredible colour. My own mare has the specific Akhal Teke way of moving and is very comfortable to ride. She also has this desire to please. (I must also add that I fell of her back several times and will put her in training again, but this is more due to my clumsiness)

So I think that the Akhal Teke breed has some attractive characterizations; the colour, the comfortable gait and the willingness to please. These are more or less unique to the breed and strangely enough do not appear in the structure of grading individual horses. I read that Tabitha’s horse did not even have to trot before the judges. I don’t think that this is a mistake of the judges, but it just is not part of the grading system.

I think that when it comes to “marketing” the Akhal Teke we may consider presenting an all-round performance horse with exotic colours, smooth gaits and the desire to please.

I am not very familiar yet with the Akhal Teke world, but sometimes it appears to me that too much emphasis is laid on type and grading.

12. Darya01/13/2007 09:30:07
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Hello Robert,
You made an excellent point about some of the most important traits not being considered while the grading is taking place. I don't think there is enough attention being paid to the temperament and the character of the horse, as Jessica has already pointed out before. I think that is why a lot of experienced people here encourage newcomers to look at the horse first, and may be consider gradings last, depending on what one wants to do with the horse.
Myself for example still pretty unaware of what gradings my stallion was awarded. I know he is what I was looking for and here he is in my stable. I've only recently requested for his gradings just for the record, because, as you have pointed out, a lot of people are interested in those.
What do you plan on doing with your mare?
Nice to have you on the blog,
Darya

13. Petra01/14/2007 04:01:07
Homepage: http://www.akhal.cz

I think the only criteria for Tekes should be purity.
Other things - it is the responsibility of every breeder. If someone wants to breed pink Tekes with green spots and crooked legs, let him. I wouldn■t be afraid of it. The major and best population is in the hands of experienced breeders in Russia and I am convinced that they wouldn■t breed such animals.
With defects - who will judge which defects is hereditary or not, serious or not serious? And you all know that many defects could be influenced e.g. by bad feeding during mare■s pregnancy or bad training or exercise management, especially young horses.
Here in Czech Republic some time ago born TB colt with crooked and shortened foreleg. Everybody told to shot him. Well, some years later he became triple winner of our famous steeplechase Velka Pardubicka and owners wanted to put him for breeding. And once more there were voices that the crooked leg could be hereditary. But they tried him and he sired horse who came 2nd in Velka Pardubicka and he was maternal sire of another legend Peruan (triple times winner of VP and 2nd in Sporting Index Steeplechase in CHeltenham). None of descendants of this horse has any problem with legs. Another story with Fakir Sulu. If we can believe to IV. Studbook, there is written, that his offspring has often weakned constitution, with mares inbred on Boinou his offspring has defects like both blind eyes, missing forelegs, parrot mouth, crooked legs, etc. But, in the hands of Shamborant, he sired Gelishikli and Fakirpelvan.
So no restrictions from Mother stud books or some organisations, but responsibility of every breeder. And support of the breeders by Studbook or some organisation like MAAK which means easy and transparent registrating process (no other Delegatkas). Breeders will get actual information, they will have possibility to learn from experts about the breed, ... I think this will help more to increase the quality of the breed if people know better what to breed and how. Specially here in Europe and U.S. there is often good will but not enough knowledge.
And my wish - introducing flat racing in Europe and US, which tests physical and mental constitution and bravery of the horse.
And last - no insemination and embryotransfer.

14. shael01/14/2007 08:55:41
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Petra, you are my sister!!!

15. Hans-Jurg Buss01/14/2007 09:05:53

Petra
"..it is the responisbility of every breeder.." that is exactly the point.

Without any rules everybody can make what he wants. That is why societies in general always have set up certain rules and laws which try to prevent inidviduals from doing just what they want. The problem with genetical defects is that they must not necessarily be evident in the immediate offspring of a horse but that they are carried forward in the genes for generations and may become suddenly manifest to the detriment of a breeder which had no idea that a certain horse within the pedigree of his stallion/broodmare had that genetical defect. If he is serious, he will not breed anymore with that broodmare/stallion. If not he will and then somebody else later will gather in the result. I tell you frankly that two of my foals have genetical defects. The stallion I gelded and the filly will surely not be bred by myself. But with complete lack of transparency it is very difficult to even trace back whether that comes from the sire or the broodmare. So what to do as a serious breeder: do not use both anymore for breeding?

16. Hans-Jurg Buss01/14/2007 09:20:58

To add: as I stated in my first posting in this thread for me I just do not what is the right answer.

And I agree with the posting of Petra (by the way Petra: I already was twice at the race track of Pardubice together with my son for the European Young Riders Eventing Championships. Incredible race track for steeple chase! One must have seen that). But it relates mostly to the past. Nowadays, with a stabilized gene pool of Tekes may be emphasis should or could be placed differently.

17. shael01/14/2007 09:26:56
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Hans-Jurg, this is difference between partbred and purebred breeding. There is only one criteria in the pure breeds - purity. If you need reglaments, look at partbred breeds. In the breeding of purity breeders must have only one aim - exelence. And this breeders have right for risk. In this breeding average level is not attractive. High level we must find at races, rings and equestrian sport. And only breeder must decide the using of concrete horse in the breeding.

18. Robert van Driel01/14/2007 10:19:32

Hello Petra,

The discussion on approving breeding animals within the Akhal Teke breed is probably purely theoretical as I agree with you that the major population of the breed is in the hands of experienced and responsible breeders. Moreover, the origin of the Akhal Teke was shaped by the people of Turkmenistan that did not even have a studbook or strict breeding rules.
However, I agree with Todd when he said in his Bek Nazar Blog; “A womb does not make a mare a broodmare, testicles don't make a stallion a sire!”

As to the artificial insemination. My opinion, as a novice in the Akhal Teke world, allowing it would significantly broaden the gene pool in countries where there are not many Akhal Teke stallions. Suppose I would like to have my mare covered by a stallion from the Czech Republic. Wouldn’t it make sense to collect the seed and send it by a standard expedition company in a cooling box to The Netherlands? If you would allow me to have my mare covered by Mingam and being opposed to insemination, I would have to drive to Humpolec in the Czech Republic, which is 989.5 km away from the place where I live in The Netherlands. With resting periods included for both me and the horse the whole trip including return would take 2 to 3 days.
I just fail to see the value of this.

19. shael01/14/2007 10:57:22
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Robert van Driel, I suppose Petra is more interesting to sell you the son of Mingam than a cooling box of him. If you are not to invest this breed, look your local freazians.

20. Robert van Driel01/14/2007 11:36:28

Hello Shael,

I agree to your idea. It would be a good solution. But it does not seem to be very realistic to buy a stallion if you only have one mare.

Besides, it is much nicer to be able to choose a different stallion each year. And given the practical problem of distance, artificial insemination is a good alternative.

21. Petra01/14/2007 12:31:38
Homepage: http://www.akhal.cz

Hello Robert,
to insemination - it is the question of approach. I think that it has no place with purebred breeding. And look to Russia - why do you think, Leonid sends his mares thousands kilometres from his stud to Stavropol farm and why Mr. Klimuk sends his mares to Shakhid to Dagestan? And both of them has excellent stallions in their yards.

22. Hans-Jurg Buss01/14/2007 13:50:43

Leonid, okay, but then what about the rules of MAAK, of which the Russian AT association is part of? They have introduced grading as criteria, which is even more "subjective" than question of genetical defects. But I know your answer: forget about MAAK. And I would agree.

23. shael01/14/2007 14:20:49
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Robert van Driel, try to buy one real extra and every western breeder will come to you.

24. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/14/2007 23:25:24
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

I am going to buy a good stud from you Leonid!!

25. shael01/15/2007 03:06:37
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Wellcome!!!

26. Jessica 01/15/2007 09:18:59

Here is my suggestion on how we can have it all in this breed;

PURITY shall be the only criteria for registration AND reproduction for this breed.

The techniques for approving PURITY shall be decided by a group appointed and approved by breeders, state-of-the-art techniques shall be used, total transparency shall be assured. This is a key issue.

The LEGEND of the breed shall be maintained and marketed by a group selected and approved by the breeders. This might involve the funding and keeping track of any new research on the unique traits of the breed as well as the publication of new and old research that maintains the support the legend of the breed.

NO gradings or points or other information than year, place of birth, breeder, pedigree and offspring shall be allowed to be published in the studbook that will ONLY maintain the register and studbook with a high level of service to breeders and owners. Annual statistics must be published in media that can be accessed by as many as possible and to be open to the public. The statistics shall be published in at least one international language. The breeders shall appoint a group of auditors of the work with the keeping of the register.

The breeders of Tekes that will want to quality test their Tekes for typicalness shall work together to arrange public breed shows for purpose of quality assessment and to promote the typical traits and usages for Tekes. These shows are optional for all Tekes. Results will not be published with other bodies than the organisation that arranges the show. This activity will also results in the foundation of a group of judges that will be selected on their performance as suitable for the job. Breeders, judges and organisations that create the shows will together work out a standard of excellence for the breed that can be used to educate the public and the breeders, train new judges as well as being used in the marketing of the breed.

The breeders of Tekes that will want to quality test their Tekes for sport horse abilities for the Olympic disciplines can work out to participate in such tests with the various sport horse studbooks that have an expertise knowledge and experience to perform such tests. Results of those tests will be published by the sport horse association. This agreement is already worked out in Sweden and also from beginning this year in the USA with one sport horse association.

Sport results for Tekes that perform will be published by the organisation that arranges the sport shows.
Optimally there will be a global database created for owners to add their sport results with reference to the results published by the organisation that arranged the show.

Artificial reproductional techniques, ART, today the need for education and understanding among breeders world wide is more important than reproductional techniques.
Any decision on any of the different techniques should preceded by a thorough investigation performed by a group appointed and approved by the breeders.

27. Jessica01/15/2007 09:29:50

I have to add SOUNDNESS, stallion owners that want to publish their stallions as free from what many breed associations today consider heritable genetical defects are free to do so by participating in official quality tests for sport horses or by showing vet certficates for soundness.
As few breed organisations scan mares for genetical defects, as they do not have as much impact on the population as stallions, it is and has been the mare owners responsability to make the breeding decision. The future will tell what breeders select for soundness and not. Hopefully the breeders that repeatedly produce unsound animals will disappear from the market.

28. Hans-Jurg Buss01/15/2007 10:39:02

Jessica
Congratulations! Your proposal pretty much summarizes up and integrates all the issues we have been discussing here in different threads the last weeks. Apart from may be details I would agree completely.

29. maria01/16/2007 05:10:55

Jessica, this is a really excellent effort to pull together the many strains of thought into something that looks like a proposal that would be acceptable to most owners and breeders. It's great to see a blueprint as a result of all the blogging!

30. Petra01/16/2007 08:18:04
Homepage: http://www.akhal.cz

Great Jessica,
only small note - no ART, but really art. Means no articial techniques and making "affordable" foals in large amount like on manufacture track, but purebred breeding (better word maybe THOROUGH bred breeding). WIth its excellence.
Because what would you prefer, "handmade" products or serial ones which are at every home?

31. Heather01/16/2007 11:58:58

Jessica,
Excellent suggestions. I think everyone can appreciate a thoughtful, intelligent and eloquent perspective on such a controversial series of issues. Believe me, it can be daunting to interested Akhal-Teke outsiders like myself.

On AI:
I have just a few questions/statements on the AI debate, which I'm certain will be ongoing. Petra, I can appreciate your metaphor to hand-made items vs. serial ones. Marketed in that way live-cover foals seem almost superior in "quality" to AI produced progeny. But here is my question to Leonid and Petra. What scientific foundation is there to question the legitimacy of AI in regards to purity or even art?? This is not embryo transfer, as we discussed before, where Leonid questions the influences of plasma transfer, although from a scientific perspective this does not influence the DNA of the foal, but only immunities which will be passed via the plasma of the mother. I understand the fear of "over-production," as Petra eloquently pointed out, but this is always inhibited monetarily, as well as by a limited book for a given stallion. Does not the stallion owner have some say in to whom they sell and ship semen?? In this way you still retain control of your "art" but have only more materials from which to choose. Or do you feel that there are not mares outside of Russia worth considering for your breeding purposes?

Food for thought and my curiousity.

Hope you enjoyed the long Martin Luther King holiday weekend, to all the US based bloggers!

Lastly, to Todd - I forgot to tell you Happy Hogmanay!!! A little belated. I should have send you and Jessica a black bun pudding. Alba go braugh agus bliain mhath!

Heather

32. shael01/16/2007 12:21:18
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Heather, this is not scientific problem, this is problem of philosophy, then market and philisophy again. I wrote this in articles on my site.

33. Heather01/16/2007 13:21:31

Leonid,
Is that article available in English? I read several of your articles a while back and enjoyed them, but some weren't translated. My Russian is less than stellar, and BabelFish's Russian is even worse! Not really, but at any rate, I could not follow the Russian articles. Please give me the name of the article in which this is discussed and if it's in English I will be happy to read your opinions there.
Thanks!
Heather

34. shael01/16/2007 13:41:43
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

http://www.shael-teke.com/web/shael.nsf/Articles/4BB42B0C3E7B10F985257215006D4637
http://www.shael-teke.com/web/shael.nsf/Articles/F0D05500AFFE732A85257215006E6F11

35. Heather01/16/2007 15:37:29

Leonid and Alexander,
You have my admiration for well written and weell thought out articles that hit the point and devliver your point of view in a concise and persuasive manner. Here are my questions. How does AI lead to the dramatic narrowing of the gene pool if the stallion is bred on a limited book? You do not have to flood the market with semen from one horse if you choose to limit how many times fresh or frozen semen will be made available to outside mares each season. For instance, I cannot speak for Jessica and Todd, but assume that there was a Russian stallion that you and they both agreed might be a wonderful match for the Osman daughters... Would allowing them to import semen suddenly mean that you must make it available to anyone or everyone that requests it? If I understand correctly, the stallion owner can be as selective as the mare owner, no? These are just hypothetical questions, of course. I am not a breeder, nor am I likely to ever be, but I appreciate your answers and views on these interesting questions.
Heather

36. Jessica01/16/2007 15:51:28

Thank you all for the positive comments to the summary of a suggestion for a common platform to work from to create a better future for this breed. These suggestion had not been able to come up with without everyones participation in this Teke ThinkTank we have created here.

I think at this point those of us who want to join the revolution and try to create a good future for this breed will have to make up our minds on to what extent we are prepared to compromise in order to create a modern, open, democratic organisation for this breed.

It is very difficult to merge different horse cultures, but if we really want I am sure that many of us have the strong drive to create something fantastic.

37. Jessica01/16/2007 16:12:43

The ART issue can be and shall be thoroughly discussed. There are several approaches population genetics, market value, breeders economy, breed development and the maintenance of the legend.

One suggestion is to benchmark the arguments for and against with the two breeds that most often are used in the discussions, the TB and the Arabian breed. How does the population genetics, market value, breeder's economy, breed development and the maintenance of the legend been affected by the Yes and No to ART.

How is the Teke breed being affected by the unregulated use of ART?

38. Jessica01/16/2007 16:53:11

Petra, I cannot say that I would see the use of AI as a tool for massproduction. AI is far to expensive for someone who wants to massproduce. If in the word massproduction is to produce the most to the lowest cost.
Buying a stallion if you have more than one mare is almost always cheaper than using AI. Many Teke stallions are cheap.
I have seen Teke mass production and there was nor AI, neither selection involved, there was the semi wild stallion let loose in the herd of mares and see what you get next year. That's natural, that's cheap. Is it handmade?
I think we must make a difference between the selection and the production. The selectionist (with the goal to improve) and the producer (with the goal to meet the massmarket).
I think it is a bigger chance that you see the selectionist use AI than the producer.
We will have always have both in the Teke breed. The best way in my opinion to support the selectionists - the artists- in this breed is to arrange breed shows. Or maybe better call them art exhibitions.

39. Maria01/16/2007 17:06:10

I didn't realise until recently that Arabian studbooks are OK with AI. A few months ago, a couple of endurance riders came to see Mualim and went very enthusiastic about him. But when I saw them at Xmas, they were preparing to AI their 17-year-old mare with the semen of a dead Arab stallion. The mare is a fairly big-time winner, so what does it tell us? That they know better than to choose an unproven AT stallion for their valuable mare Jessica, you expressed surprised at the time, so now you and I can both see, they are not amateurs after all! sorry to go off the topic...

40. Hans-Jurg Buss01/16/2007 17:43:22

The question of whether AI should be accepted in Teke breed or not and if yes to what degree (from fresh semen over frozen semen to embryo transfer up to - horrible - cloning) can not be answered by anybody in an "objective" way. It has philosophical, marketing, financial and genetical aspects about those one can discuss with no end. On this issue one must be prepared to compromise and accept others opinions. But of course for the breed there must be a generally accepted rule, whatever it is.

41. Darya01/17/2007 05:22:48
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Jessica,
Good point that AI is expensive. Especially frozen. I've looked up out of curiosity on the pricing to get the frozen semen collected from a stallion and I can assure you that it is pretty possible to buy another Teke stallion for that price. I doubt I can sell a foal for that much at this point in UK.

42. Robert van Driel01/17/2007 07:37:58

Hello Jessica,

You were very right when you started this discussion, by saying that it was a really interesting discussion. Spot on!

I support your idea of a global database. I have heard that you operated a database years ago. I have not seen this but I do know of the existence of the following database;

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/santana50

If you activate this you will see the pedigree of my Akhal Teke mare. Some photo’s are attached and it is possible – if you pay a fee – to generate all kind of reports for example on inbreeding. Wouldn’t it be nice if MAAK – or any other organization – had such an online system whereby the Studbooks that are now prepared once every 5 years or so can than be produced by pressing “ENTER”? I agree with Jessica’s thoughts to publish sports results in such a database.

Because of the articles that Leonid showed us I now realize that there is more than just one argument against Artificial Insemination. However as I have experienced myself and as some others have already pointed out, Artificial Insemination is very expensive. The costs prohibits a large scale use of the reproduction technique. Using AI will probably lead to the increased use of some stallions, but the impact on the whole breed will probably be not very significant.

But I must admit that too me as a very small scale breeder the discussion is very interesting but very academic.

43. Heather01/17/2007 09:39:09

Discussions like these are why I enjoy coming back to the blog again and again.
Like Robert said, Leonid's articles present an interesting perspective that promote the philosophical and cultural views on breeding, and make a reasonable argument for the intricate involvement of the breeder int he selection, breeding and raising of Akhal-Tekes. However, like Jessica pointed out, live cover does not always make a horse "handmade", nor does it prevent massproduction, as in the case of the heated debates we recently had over a particular breeder that would also be called an artist, but is actually one of the worst massproducers I've "dealt" with (via his sickly horses).

So where does this leave AI? Like we've said, AI is very cost prohibitive, and does not really run the risk of flooding the market. Also, no one has answered on offering semen to a limited book of mares... I know this is done with some Arab stallions. Is this not reasonable for AT's as well? If I'm mistaken somewhere, DO let me know, as again - I'm not a breeder. Also, if the organisation proposed by Jessica decided to accept AI, it would not require Russian breeders to automatically make their stallion available for semen collection, would it? Nor do they have the obligation to purchase or admire a horse produced through AI. But as Leonid is fond of saying, "just look at the horse." That is enough to determine if the outcome is art or mediocrity.

From what I've read so far I cannot find that there is a strong enough argument against AI - or indication that it could cause substantial harm to the market - to say it should be outlawed by a fledgling organisation. Of course, there is lots of debate to continue before that decision takes place, and will undoubtedly be between more important people than myself!

Cheers,
Heather

44. Robert van Driel01/17/2007 09:41:00

This pedigree database is so easily adjustable as, at least, one of you noticed that the parents of Santana changes just about every minute.

So let's add to the proposal that an official organization should lock the recored once it is determined that the data is correct....

45. Jessica01/17/2007 09:55:26

Robert, according to the link to the studbook database your mare is not a Teke. This is to illustrate the weakness with a studbook database that can be edited by anyone. I apologise for editing your horse I just wanted to give an example to why such databases are really not reliable.
Todd designed a studbook database in Lotus Notes in 1997 and has himself entered registered purebred Teke since then, except for a few from the 10th studbook that are being entered continously. This database was offered as an online version for free use during some years.
We had to close the online studbook from public use for several reasons, Todd originally built it for our own use in studying the breed. Todd has over the years added info such as known soundness issues etc that we find usable for our own breeding program. Todd has not yet added the algorithm for counting inbreeding. Breeding purebreds means that you really have to know your pedigrees!
The small scale breeders, like me and Todd, shall and must have a saying within the breed. How many Teke breeders register more than 20 purebred foals annually outside Russia?
I would guess that the western population of Tekes is to 95% being bred and maintained by small scale breeders. Maybe that to is the reason to the lack of interest from MAAK/VNIIK.
Another reason for breeders to unite.

46. Hans-Jurg Buss01/17/2007 10:02:29

Maria, according to my knowledege each national studbook for Arabian Horses establishes by itself whether for this particualr studbook AI and/or Embryo Transfer is allowed or not. In some countries it is allowed, in others not. That reflects the different "philosophical" and "financial" approach to this issue in each country.

47. Heather01/17/2007 10:51:04

Jessica,
I did not know that about the Arabian stud book, but it is helpful within the context of our discussion. Is this something you think might be applicable to AT's??

48. Petra01/17/2007 12:21:14
Homepage: http://www.akhal.cz

Hello Jessica,
I agree that selection should be the first thing which is took into consideration. And I know that there are many breeders, unfortunately also here in Czech Republic, where selection is made by stallions escaping from their paddocks or who are left semi-wild in the herd of mares.
I am just afraid that in not far future there could be situation that when you come to studfarms to choose your dream stallions, there will be none. Just spermbank. And daughters and grandaughters of Pampa, Azgul, Pudok Khan, Oprava, Opera, ..... will have several foals each year from embryotransfer. It is just question of time, when ART will be cheaper (e.g. here in Czech Republic one dose of frozen sperm exportable around EU costs around 25 euros, succesful embryotransfer around 1500 euros). And as the generation period is quite long with horses, it could be late to cope with consequences of ART retro-actively. And as the future is made by us at present, the problems of ART should be very carefully treated.
And of course, it is a question of philisophy as Leonid mentioned.

49. maria01/17/2007 13:16:13

I don't think AI should be the "sticking point" of this excellent initiative. Views such as Petra's paint an honest picture, though a negative one, and it is important that such views are heard. I am sure we can continue to discuss it but more than anything, I am looking to the next stage in this exciting development!

50. Hans-Jurg Buss01/17/2007 16:02:31

As I said Maria, we can continue to discuss this issue of AI or ART forever. Just because approaches are so different we must look for a practical solution which is widely accepted, a real compromise. To add just a last point: If you forbid AI it is nearly impossible to control whether "cooled down" fresh semen or frozen semen has been shipped let's say from North Germany to South of France instead of shipping the mare from South to North to the stallion..... No one can control that. And it is always problematic to establish rules which can not be controled. The only thing you can really control is whether frozen semen from already death or gelded stallions has been used. A "practical" solution would be to allow AI for living stallions (because this will always be done), but to prohibit for dead and gelded ones. This combines "philosophical" with "economic" approach. But as I said, we can continue discussing endlessly. Some compromise must be found.

51. Maria01/17/2007 16:56:31

Hans-Jurg, just the last response then When I discussed this with Leonid once, he expressed a view that cooled semen, particularly taken from the stallion on the same or nearby premises where the mare is, is not so bad, in his view. Because it is done almost like live cover, for the reason that live cover is difficult for some veterinary reason. Leonid's main objection was to ET because he felt that the host mother is bound to influence the development of the foal after it's been born. I am just passing on what he said. As you know, I am not a breeder, only an owner of a perfectly celibate stallion, so have absolutely no stake in this discussion whatsoever. And I do my best not let him run around wild though he did escape once. He ran to the neighbours' mares but stopped to admire them over the fence and I was lucky to catch him at that point.

52. Jessica01/17/2007 17:06:47

It all begins with the basics; rules for registration and identification of the animals to be inscribed as purebreds. If the register asks for a signed breeding report from the stallion owner, were method of breeding will have to be reported such as live cover, fresh semen, cooled, frozen, etc the breeding method will be known for all horses registered.
The register will have to decide which breeding method is not allowed for registration. For TB GSB the rule is clear: "all racehorses must be a result of a stallion's mating with a mare which is the physical mounting of mare by a stallion with intromission of the penis and ejaculation of semen into the mating tract. As an aid to the mating, a portion of the ejaculate produced by the stallion during such mating may immediately be placed in the reproductive tract of the mare being bred."
The register would have to formulate clear rules on what methods would be allowed for a foal to be registered, the WAHO has forbidden cloning, no cloned Arabian horse will be registered as purebreds, but foals produced by methods such as AI and ET to be inscribed as purebreds. WAHO has mandatory rules as well as policies. One policy is to not recommend stallion licensing as they consider it discriminating however, some national registries have stallion licensing. This has to do with the fact that a true world registry will have to consider differences in national rules and regulations for horse breeding.
Another important issue for a register to consider is if the register will accept to have horses dismissed from the register retroactively( as it is today with the Russian studbook).
The methods for proper identification, branding, chip markings etc.
The present method for identification is not satisfactory and will not be approved for an international registry.
For a registry to maintain integrity the methods for identification and verification of purity (according to the rules) must be as safe and transparent as possible. I think this is one of the bigger problems the breed is facing today.
An international register could actually work out mandatory rules as well as policies, a mandatory rule could be that a foal produced by semen from a dead stallion will never be allowed to be registered as purebred. A policy could be to limit the number of foals being registered from one stallion using the AI method. Stallion X can
have 20 offspring produced by AI, number 21 will not be registered.
But as Hans-Jürg pointed out, there must be an agreement about the AI issue as otherwise there would be registries for AI and ET produced Tekes (the Russian studbook) and registries that did not allow for those registrations. Certainly something to ponder about.
For me personally the accuracy of the records are of highest priority at this point as well as the service to the public and the breeders. At this point we all realise that the "mysticism" around registering and grading and other issues in the Russian studbook is not a good selling point for the heavenly breed.
I can see that the AI question can kill this international initiative in its embryonal stage which would be a pity.
Maybe a step by step approach on what would be acceptable is the best way, can fresh semen be accepted, can frozen and if so how many foals per year etc. Whatever is decided the method for breeding should be transparent and declared by the register, important statistics for future discussions can be pulled from such reports. As for now we do not know what foals are results of what breeding methods, except for those from dead stallions.
It would have been great to be able to see how many % of the foals annually that were produced by AI or ET for this discussion.

53. Jessica 01/17/2007 17:16:08

Robert, you can do so many cool things with a thoroughly designed database, you can for example give different accesses down to field level of every entered variable. You can have some fields that can be read by a big group and fields that can be read by a smaller group as well as fields that can be edited by one one person and of course you keep an audit trail on all changes. Pictures and scanned documents can be added for every horse. Total transparency and the right access to the right person.

54. Hans-Jurg Buss01/17/2007 18:59:57

Jessica, the AI issue will not kill a serious international initiative as long as we remain open minded. I called it a "practical" solution, you say "step by step". I think in the essence we agree, we just must establish basic rules for the immediate future and make sure that if these rules should be changed once in a more restrictive way that will not be applied retroactively. In today's practice I guess AI is not very widespread in AT breed. So this issue for rational people should not be allowed to become the killing element for a global and transparent registry/stud book.

55. shael01/18/2007 06:32:39
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

пропдвжв

56. shael01/18/2007 07:33:18
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Извините за предыдущий пост.
Я изложу свои мысли по русски, Маша, пожалуйста переведите если есть время.

О "дороговизне" искусственного осеменения (ИО). Петра привела расчёты и это всё равно это дешевле, чем брать жеребца в аренду или посылать кобылу на случку или покупать жеребца.
В Положении о Книге записано
"9. Жеребенок, полученный путем искусственного осеменения, может быть зарегистрирован в "Регистре молодняка" и записан в Студбуке под матерью только в том случае, если он получен от жеребца, одобренного Селекционно-племенным Центром. Для этого необходим официальный документ, подтверждающий факт искусственного осеменения, а также данные иммуногенетических тестов и тестов ДНК приплода и родителей. Регистрация таких жеребят стоит дороже."
То есть фактически идёт принудительное лицензирование жеребцов. Но это не главное.
Когда вы говорите, что купить жеребца дешевле, чем ИО, то мы видимо говорим о разных жеребцах. Я недавно продал жеребца за $ 3000, а случка с Газыром, Мургабом стоит от $ 5000. Если вас интересуют жеребцы топ уровня, то это совершенно другие деньги, как за случку, так и на их покупку. Я делю лошадей следующим образом:
1. Лошади для верховой езды - до $10000;
2. Лошади для верховой езды и при этом имеющие потенциал для спорта и племенного использования - от $ 10000 до 30000;
3. Лошади имеющие несомненную ценность для племенного использования - от 30000 до 50000;
4. Лошади, продажа которых нанесёт племенной ущерб коннозаводству, которые являются базовыми для завода - от 50000 до бесконечности.
При этом возраст лошади не имеет никакого значения.
Ценообразование зависит от объёма денежных масс, находящихся в обслуживании коннозаводства и его клиентов.
Необходимо создавать индустрию, где найдут для себя хлеб множество людей разных специальностей. Биотехнологии приведут к сокращению занятости людей и к выхолащиванию коннозаводства.
Всех жеребцов будут кастрировать, предварительно накачав спермы и продавать. Вместо конюшни с производителями будет стоять холодильник и DVD player. Поголовье кобыл будет значительно сокращено и как следствие будет сокращаться генофонд и творчество.
Надо сказать, что любая технология имеет обыкновение дешеветь и биотехнологии не исключение. Удешевление ахалтекинской лошади приведёт к потере рынка класса люкс, а на других секторах рынка царят другие герои.

57. maria01/18/2007 10:33:04

About the costs of Artificial Insemination (AI). Petra gave us some figures. It is still cheaper than leasing a stallion or sending a mare to be covered or buying a stallion. The Studbook Regulations say: 9. “A foal born as a result of Artificial Insemination can be registered in the Youngstock Register under its dam only if s/he has been sired by a stallion, approved by the Selection and Breeding Centre. For this, one must possess an official document, which confirms that Artificial Insemination had taken place, and also the results of immuno-genetic testing and DNA testing of the sire and dam and the off-spring. The cost of registration of such foals is higher than normal.” So in effect, there is a forced licensing of stallions taking place here. But this is not the main problem. When you say that to buy a stallion is cheaper than AI, we are most likely talking about different stallions. I recently sold a stallion for USD 3,000 but Gasyr’s or Murgab;s stallion fee is USD 5,000. If you are intersted in the top-quality stallions, then you need to think in terms of very different money, be it for purchase or cover. I divide horses in the following way: 1. Riding horses – up to USD 10,000 2. Riding horses which have a sports potential and breeding potential – between USD 10,000 and 30,000 3. Horse which clearly have breeding value – from 30,000 to 50,000 4. Horse whose sale will cause harm to the breeding work of the stud and which form the foundation stock of the stud – from USD 50,000 to infinity The age of the horse is immaterial. Price levels are set depending on the monetary pool available to the breeders and their clients. It is necessary to create an industry in which many people of different specialisations will find a bread-winning occupation. Biotechnologies will lead to the reduction in the range of these occupations and the horse-breeding becoming sterile. All the stallions will get gelded, after they have been collected for sale. Instead of a stable with breeding stallions there will be a freezer and a DVD player. The number of breeding mares will be reduced with a subsequent reduction in genetic diversity and in creativity. Also, it should be mentioned that any technology has the tendency to become more affordable and AI is no exception. The reduction in prices of the Akhal-Teke horses will lead to the loss of the luxury-goods market, and the other sectors of the market is ruled by their own kings.

58. Jessica01/18/2007 11:03:52

Let' focus on the issues we can agree on, like creating a good and sound breed with a thrilling legend and multiple usage that will interest a market that is prepared to pay a little bit extra for a unique horse. The prices asked for Tekes today, even top prices, are low compared to top prices paid for other horse breeds.
There is plenty of room for improvement and I think falling back on issues that split rather than unite is not good marketing and will not create the market this breed deserves and needs to survive.

The reality today is that AI and ET is allowed in our breed. National studbooks for the breed such as Russia, USA, Switzerland and France allow AI in this breed and to be honest I do not think these studbooks will close their registries for AI produced foals in the future.
As Leonid knows the marketing of the Teke breed is very much about hard work and finding the right investors, in order to do so we should present the Teke concept in an attractive package.
Next step that Maria asked for is to create a group of breeders that are willing to sacrifice time to work out a concept for how to improve international cooperation.

59. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/18/2007 13:39:02
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

Thank you Leonid for explaining AI like that. I am making up a Squidoo lens (http://www.squidoo.com/breed/) on breeding and I would like to put the translated version of your comment (#57) on it - is that ok?

60. maria01/18/2007 14:08:18

With an attribution for author and translator, please...

61. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/18/2007 14:19:50
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

sorry - http://www.squidoo.com/breed

62. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/18/2007 14:22:35
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

what is your last name Maria and do you have a webpage?
Thanks!

63. Maria01/18/2007 15:46:12

Kerri-Jo, no webpage, I am afraid, and several Last Names due to itinerant lifestyle. Go for "Maria Marquise" - the enfant terrible of the Yahoo list.

64. Jessica01/18/2007 15:49:31

Kerri, make sure that you refer to writer, translator as well as refer with link to this blog.
Maria, if you are the enfant terrible on the Yahoo list, who am I

65. shael01/18/2007 15:59:22
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

I prefer to be king terrible

66. Jessica01/18/2007 16:39:50

The three djigits Leonid the King Terrible, Alexander the King of History, Todd the king of Cyberstudbook have been joined in the fight for the survival of the Argamak by Maria the Enfant Terrible on her white steed with blue eyes. More djigits will join and soon, again, the Argamak will be most sought after horse in the world!

67. Darya01/19/2007 05:23:55
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I love discussions like this one! The only name I can think for myself is Darya the Windblown with Dominik the Loud after our yesterdays adventures...

Kerry, nice job with gathering all the info nicely on one page!

Best,

Darya

68. shael01/19/2007 05:48:13
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Пресс-релиз

Вырастить сына, построить дом, посадить дерево… и увидеть текинца

5000 лет традиций чистокровного разведения.ахалтекинской породы лошадей.
“Ахалтекинская лошадь — это первая чистокровная порода мира, последние капли того источника чистой крови, с помощью которой было создано всё культурное коннозаводство…”
В течение тысячелетий не было другой породы лошадей, которая по красоте, силе, резвости и выносливости могла выдержать сравнение с ахалтекинцами.
В.О.Витт
Россия стала второй родиной для ахалтекинской лошади. Нигде невозможно найти такого количества энтузиастов, любителей и знатоков этой удивительной породы лошадей. «Древние россияне любили сих лошадей безмерно… и потомкам надлежит оправдать их выбор» - писал в 1824 году первый русский иппологический еженедельник.
В мире нет более эффектной лошади, чем величественный ахалтекинец, гибкий и пружинистый, переливающийся золотом на солнце, плавно скользящий на рыси или стелющийся в галопе. (А. Климук)
Никакая лошадь не представляет такого сочетания длинных линий с такими видимыми признаками силы и высокой энергии. Европейцу он мог бы показаться слишком тонким и лёгким, но, внимательно присмотревшись к строению туркменского коня, находишь удивительную приспособленность к быстроте и сопротивлению. Какие рычаги, какие мускулы, сухожилия, ширина и объём сочленений! (Э Гайо - французский ипполог)
Ахалтекинская, несомненно, одна из красивейших конских пород. Кто раз увидел ахалтекинца, всегда отличит его среди других лошадей: экстерьер его необычен и поражает взгляд утонченностью и благородством.

Будучи древнейшей чистокровной породой, ахалтекинцы признаны прародителями современного культурного коневодства, первыми в ряду чистокровных пород. (А. Климук)

Нигде в Мире и только в России есть возможность увидеть звезд конного мира - царственных ахалтекинцев на уникальном шоу «Текинская Пальмира – шаЭль». Свои «бриллианты» представят мировые лидеры ахалтекинского коннозаводства, а также лошади из частных коллекций. (в том числе из конюшни В. Путина).
На суд зрителей и авторитетного жюри будет представлен многоступенчатый конкурс, где цвет текинских лошадей будет показан во всём своём величии, как на свободе, так и в сравнении - в борьбе за звание «Самой красивой лошади - 2007».
Парад красоты и грации сопровождается оригинальной живой музыкой и танцами, окрашенными в восточные тона.
ХХl век даёт человеку удивительные возможности, но увидеть лучших из живых потомков боевых соратников Египетских фараонов, царя Соломона и Александра Великого можно только в России, на шоу «Текинская Пальмира – шаЭль».
Эти лошади пахнут потом Дария. (А. Глухарёв)

Л. Бабаев
http://horsegames.ru/

69. 01/19/2007 09:29:35

To raise a son, to build a house, to plant a tree… and to see a real Akhal-Teke. A five-thousand-year-old tradition of breeding a pure Akhal-Teke horse. “The Akhal-Teke horse – is the first thoroughbred horse in the world, the last drops of the orginal source of the pure blood which helped to created all cultivated breeding traditions in the world...” For thousands of years, there was no other breed of equal beauty, strength, speed and stamina (V.O. Vitt). Russian has become a second homeland for the Akhal-Teke horse. Nowhere can one find the same numbers of enthusiasts, connoisseurs and experts of this marvellous breed. “Ancient Russian admired this horse immesurably… and their descendants should strive to prove that their choice was right”, writes the author of an article in one of the first Russian Equestrian weekly journals. There is no other horse that leaves such unforgettable impression as the noble Akhal-Teke – lithe, light and springy, glistening with gold in the rays of the sun, with its smooth gliding trot and a ground-lining gallop (A. Klimuk). No other horse has the unique combination of long, elegant lines with such overtly expressive signs of strength and energy. To a European eye it may appear to be of slight built but if one looks carefully at its conformation one will find a remarkable aptitude for speed and endurance. “What engine, what muscles, tendons, width and capacity of its joints!” (E. Gallo – French Hippologist). The Akhal-Teke horse is certainly one of the most beautiful breeds. Those who have seen it once, will always recognised it amongst other horses: its appearance is unique and strikes one’s eye with its refinement and noble form. As one of the most ancient of all pure breeds, the Akhal-Teke horse is recognised as the precursor of all modern “cultivated” breeding, the first thoroughbred tradition. (A. Klimuk) Nowhere in the world other than in Russia will people get a comparable chance to see the brightest-shining stars of the equestrian world, as when the regal Akhal-Teke horses will be appear at the unique show “Teke Palmira – shaEl”. The jewels of the breed will be presented by the leading breeders of the Akhal-Teke, including horses from private collections (among them, the stables of President Putin). The spectators and the authoritative panel of judges will evaluate a multi-phase contest, where the Akhal-Teke horse will appear in all its glamour – in free-moving style individually and in competition to win the title of “The Most Beautiful Horse - 2007”. The parade of beauty and grace will be accompanied by live music and dance, in Eastern style. The 21st century affords people an array of opportunities, yet, in order to see the living descendants of the equine companions of the Egyptian pharaohs, of King Solomon and Alexander the Great, one has to come to Russia, to the equestrian show “Teke Palmira – shaEl”. These horses carry the smell of the sweat of the Emperor Darius (A. Glukharev). L. Babaev http://horsegames.ru/

70. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/19/2007 16:45:09
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

Wow, what a beautiful description of Akhal-Tekes. I hope this event is a yearly one so I can go next year!

Once again I have put your comment Leonid on another lens ( http://www.squidoo.com/akhal-tekes/ )

Thanks Darya - I figured as I am searching for information I may as well make it available to others.

71. Jessica01/19/2007 17:50:07

Leonid, can you email me a cool picture so that I can add the press release as main subject. It will be so exciting to see the pictures from the event!

72. shael01/20/2007 03:14:58
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Jessica, I don't understand you. This show will be in May.
http://horsegames.ru/publication/index.php?publicationtree_id=37

73. Darya01/20/2007 04:38:43
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Some Akhal Teke pics there: http://horsegames.ru/gallery/index.php?gallerytree_id=19

74. shael01/20/2007 05:06:22
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

That are accidental and not best pictures.

75. Darya01/20/2007 06:22:42
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I can see that, but thought I share the link as not everyone can look through the web as it is in Russian. Have you got any nice ones that haven't been published yet? Would be nice to see. May be you can send them to Jessica and she can put them up on the blog. Thanks for all the beautiful descriptions of AT, and thanks Maria for translating beautifully too. It seems like among all the discussions sometimes we forget to admire the horses. It certainly made me feel good.

76. maria01/20/2007 15:08:12

Jessica and all, Does anyone have a photo of Piastr? I would like to see it. Also, I wonder if another string could be started - I would like to discuss stallions versus mares in the Akhal-Teke breed and how they behave under saddle, and whether the gender manifests itself differently in the AT compared to other breeds. Is it true that AT stallions are, in some ways, easier to deal with than stallions of other breeds? Is it true that mares are more subdued and compliant and fenimine that one would expect in another breed? Is the fact that historically stallions were mainly ridden and not mares - does it have an influence on the behaviour of an AT today? Those who have ridden lots of them might have some insights to share... If you think it's a load of rubbish, by all means tell me so. I suspect it might be.

77. Darya01/20/2007 15:46:24
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Maria,
here's one of Piastr, keep scrolling: http://www.hevosmaailma.net/Breedinfo/Pics/akhal.shtml

Interesting subject, would be nice to hear people's opinions and experiences.

Darya

78. maria01/20/2007 16:47:27

Thank you, Darya! What a long-legged creature. Now I would like to see what his foal Goluntchik turned out to be like... He belongs to Andrea Rauter in Austria but the only picture of him is when he was very young...

79. Jessica01/29/2007 09:51:55

Maria, I created a new thread on gender differences. I would like to add about Piastr, that he has loads of energy, he is very long lined and elegant, he is not a beginners horse though!

1. maria03/30/2007 07:32:24

Our most vocal resident is Spinney, the 27-year-old cob. He makes the same noise as a mare makes to a foal. It invariable means "I want..." - fill in the dots. Spinney is a simple horse: he wants to eat, go out and come in. He is not an Akhal-Teke. Mualim, on the other hand, has a versatile AT mind. He makes a "holler" noise (high-pitched neigh) when I arrive at the yard. He makes a threatening snorting noise when Spinney enters the adjacent stable. But most recently, he appears to have picked up from Spinney the mare-to-foal rambling noise which he makes when he has done something right in the manege and is about to get a treat. We have started having problems with stopping lately, he doesn't want to stop to a light aid. Very disappointing but we are working on it. I decided to follow Leonid's traditional method "knutom i prianikom" (carrot and stick, in English), so when he DOES stop as soon as he is asked, he gets a prianik, and out comes "prrtrr-prrtrrr-prrtrrr".

2. Jessica04/01/2007 20:51:22

Maria, I think with Mualim being so vocal you might be to avantgarde for the dressage circuit. I'm, not sure the dressage judges are ready for this kind of communication yet.
On another note, our big time photo model Rosanna tried to make a fuzz over having a rose water, bubble bath (yes it is true, no 1 st of April joke) before world renowned photographer came out, like she had never had a bath before, I smacked her with my hand on her wet skin, I guess the sound and feeling shocked her into total submission!
Then I suddenly remembered that her mother used to do the same thing, work herself up until you smacked her and then she came down to earth and actually listened to you.

1. maria05/02/2007 19:22:00

I can't believe this! Of all the dates, it should be one I absolutely can't make! And with my son studying there, I have more reason than one to go to Vienna - I wish I never saw this announcement

2. Carolyn05/03/2007 00:38:20

Oh why can't the date be a month later- I will actually be in Vienna then!

3. Jessica05/03/2007 10:48:17

Hmm, I'm happy to be only the messenger in this case, still we can hope for pictures. Maria, why don't you send your son with a camera?