More time in front of the computer today in other words, and tomorrow, hopefully a perfect arena and greener pastures.

I checked out two of the biggest US equine for sale sites today, I searched for Teke sires. The results were poor in numbers and below poor in quality.

What really bothers me is that 1) Horses with an obvious unsuitable conformation are offered as dressage prospects 2) Many time horses that are not related to and foremostly have no similarity with, the most famous Teke in the world, the Kazakh bred Olympic gold medalist Absent, are advertised as related to or one is lead to believe that the horse is related to Absent and therebye should have the same predisposition for Olympic level dressage.

If you study pictures of Absent and his very well merited father Arab, you can see why they did perform as well as they did from their body build.

To publish pictures of ewe necked, overbuilt horses with bad top lines and bulging underneck and claim them to be dressage prospects etc is not only embarrassing for those who publish such statements but also embarrassing for me as an Akhal-Teke breeder.
I understand that the breeders of sport horses, that has a goal to produce high quality performance horses will not use these subquality stallions, but still.....makes me feel like the brand Akhal-Teke is loosing the little value it maybe had once.

Look at these two stallions offered in 2007 to the US mare owners;





in the stallion presentations of these to horses phrases such as FEI caliber and of course references to Absent are made.

To the records I'd like to add a picture of Absent



maybe he is not the top of the tops in modern dressage type but he is close and I know a few breeders that actually would use such a stallion with his conformation and merits in a dressage oriented breeding program.

I looked through an equestrian publication this morning, great to see that the US AT Assn. is publishing a list of US breeders and the logo of the US Assn. as well as the breed name. But the illustration.... the picture, a pony sized, bushy maned horse with a bad top line, again.

Summary: Most of the time when you see the breed name Akhal-Teke in the US you see it together with pictures of mediocre horses that makes no one happy.

Conclusion: For how long can I keep on calling my horses Akhal-Tekes without looking like a backyard breeder of the worst kind.

1. Darya04/09/2007 15:48:32
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I know how you feel. Few days ago someone was asking about my horses after they heard I had two. I said they were Akhal Tekes and the answer was, oh yeah, I heard of those. Than I showed pictures of my stallion and the reaction was: oh he's actually got quite a nice conformation. As if they were expecting to see something horrible. More and more people hear about the breed, which is good, but the kind of things they hear due to some "good hard work" is quite embarassing and depressing.

2. Jessica04/09/2007 17:16:30

I am to sick and tired of having to either explain what the breed is or to explain that no not all of them have conformational or mental defects.
I am actually looking into other registries now so that I can focus on my horses not on promoting a breed that looks less and less like the horses I first saw and fell in love with.
I have to ask myself do my horses gain or loose in value being marketed as pure bred Tekes?

3. Leonid04/09/2007 22:37:10
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

http://www.shael-teke.com/web/shael.nsf/e471535c5b39db6a852572280080411d/3008da77b1288f3585257229003c30b6/Body/0.84?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=jpg

4. Kerri-Jo Stewart04/13/2007 01:39:01
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

OK Leonid - who is that?!! -has to be a son of Shaol! Looks good.

5. Hege04/16/2007 18:19:23

Jessica,
nobody could ever call you a backyard breeder of the worst kind. Even a person like me (who is new to this breed) have open enough eyes to see the difference. Your good attitude and fantastic work in breeding excellent akhal-tekes will always be known to people who genuinely cares about this breed. Yes, it is a shame to see what poor quality stallions are advertised. Quite a lot of people would prefer to stay ignorant and some people seem to take advantage of that.
Your horses are true pure bred tekes and it would be a great loss if they weren't advertised as pure bred tekes. The breed needs it I think. A year ago I was searching the net for akhal-tekes and bumped in to your website and I am totally in love with these horses.
I hope you will always keep trying and I hope you see the value you (and certain other breeders) add to the reputation of this heavenly horse.
Hege.

6. Leonid04/17/2007 00:13:48
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

No Kerri-Jo, this is not son of Shaol. Shaol is horse, wich belongs to Akhalt-Service now. This is 1160 Garant (Gubalak-Tsitata), You can look him into the last book pg 61 and foto at the end. I used him in the last year and we put foals, look my site.

7. Kerri-Jo Stewart04/17/2007 00:48:59
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

whoops - I was thinking Gazyr!! I love your stallion.

8. Jessica04/18/2007 14:20:12

Thank you for you nice words Hege. I'm happy you like our Tekes.

I understand and appreciate that horse people like you can see the difference between a good and a bad horse and also apply that to the Teke breed, they are unique in their own way but they should never have grave confirmational faults, be starved, or unrideable due to being unique.

I'm sure that the people that see the mediocre Teke stallions that are offered for breeding and just do scroll by and do not pay attention as these horses look like any low quality horse.

Had I seen photos like this of Tekes and not the magic photo of Kambar I would not have paid attention to the breed at all.

The problem we face here in the USA is the number of photos of mediocre Tekes that are circulating by far outnumbers the photos of the true magic Tekes that can catch the attention of horse people that are looking for the horse that has something extra.

If the stallion and for sale sections of the biggest equine web sites here at least had been a mix of mediocre, medium and high quality horses where most of them looked well fed and rideable the mediocre would be balanced with the good ones and visitors would have a good impression of the breed.

I do not know how many times now I have heard "I had no idea this breed could look so good and be of such quality" since we moved here, of course I'm happy that the US horse people that see us like our horses but such remarks still makes me sad.

That is why now I am pondering a new name/image for the heavenly breed.

9. Heather04/19/2007 11:52:04

Jessica,
It is hard and potentially ostracizing to be a revolutionary, but where is greatness without them? As an outsider, this blog and insight from others has given me a distaste for the current "administration" of the breed. Why do I want that hassle? Why do I want to invest in your horses, if they will be graded elite and then maybe useless next grading? If I will fight for years to receive papers and documentation from the governing body? If I have to struggle to convince my peers of the quality and worth of the breed because poor governing makes it easy for any - as you say - "backyard breeder" to sell an FEI-potential Absent offspring that looks like our native cow horses?
You have the passion, the foundation, and the knowledge to make a sound decision and carry it through. Vive votre Revolution!

10. ANNE-MARIE04/19/2007 15:25:26
Homepage: http://FREEDOMRUNFARM.COM

I think the problem will always be the freedom of speech and advertizing. There will always be bad breeders and bad horses and of course no one will advertize the fact that they have the worlds ugliest AT and that they have been completely scammed in their purchases. The general horse population can weed the bad horses out and choose the good for themselves. We are also smart enough to see through "training FEI or talented for FEI" either the horse has a performance record to boast about or not. I agree that this does nothing for our image as breeders when bad horses are advertized this way. I looked today and I own 3 of the 6 stallions pictured on one of the sites with "poor in numbers and below poor in quality" I am not real sure how to take that comment. On another note... I just heard the Pieter died today he was the dark gold stallion at the Kentucky horse park last year.

11. Jessica04/19/2007 17:04:13

Heather, perfect summary of my position, I have nothing really to loose in my revolution, have I?

12. Jessica04/19/2007 17:20:17

Anne-Marie, sad news that Pieter died, do you what caused his death?

I do not think freedom of speech or free advertising is a problem for this breed, the problem is the lack of balance. In other breeds you have the top level, the middle level and the below average level of horses advertised and of course stallion owners and horse owners have the right to say whatever they want in their ads, it is up to the buyer to verify the correctness of what is advertised.

In my opinion, in the US there are no top level stallions to represent our breed. If you think otherwise you are free to do and say so!
There is a growing number of medium level stallions, we would all benefit from having a few top level stallions in the US.
I see few reasons however, for investors to bring such horses to the US.

13. Heather04/20/2007 09:35:33

Jessica,
I think you hit the nail on the head with your last comment. What would motivate investors to bring top level stallions to the US? We have all had this discussion before. Like Leonid has explained, in Russia you have the perception of luxury and privilege associated with Teke ownership... like having a great sports car or a yacht. In US, Tekes do not enjoy that reputation and there are not enough top quality examples of the breed to support it at this time. So curious question you propose - how to instill it? A few years ago I saw a picture of Garayusup and fell in love with the breed! I read everything I could, and eventually it led to my acquaintance with your family. But I am not in the position to be a real investor, of course. I could eventually afford 1 or 2 medium quality horses, that Peter and I hope to apply to endurance, but I doubt I will ever have the income to import a top notch stallion that is surely 70K+. So, how to convince someone that could afford it that it's worth their time, interest and money? The answer is by creating a prestige around beautiful, ancient, powerful teke-turks, and it is honest, smart marketing that is required, and complete transparency in stud book and breed regulations, and lastly getting some great looking horses out and visible in competitive endeavors in the public eye.

14. Heather04/20/2007 09:58:10

Anne-Marie,
You are completely correct about the responsibility of the buyer to see through all the promises of Grand prix potential, and find support for such statements or be duped by your own ignorance. But there are many stud books that are very careful about selection of breeding animals, and work to sanction the breeding of quality animals that meet the breed regulations. To my outsider's eyes I see a line drawn between the cultural heritage of the breed wherein any stallion may be bred, and there are no genetic faults to ban - it is your wits matched to your desires to judge a horse - and the westernization of breeding regulations. Everyone is tip toeing around this line and must choose where they stand. Leonid will stand with history and culture of the breed, Hans-Jurg said he does not care about registration at all anymore - only performance and quality, Jessica is fighting to preserve the breed, while facing realities of western desires for transparency... it is a mess all in all, which is ultimately hurting the breed's success, outside of Russia perhaps.
My point is that many fine breeds have managed to create clear breeding regulations, hold keurings for offspring and mares, judge stallions according to their get, etc. And the best breeders can still go to the flagships of quality production and historical significance (like people importing from Shael and Stavropol), but the market is not then flooded at the AVERAGE level with inferior breed examples. And people like myself - that are passionate about the breed, but fell in love with a field biologist, not a stock broker - have a way to be smart and see clearly the pedigree and quality of horses offered in this country, rather than feeling like you must have CIA-worthy intelligence not to get suckered.

15. Kerri-Jo Stewart04/20/2007 14:39:48
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

I'm sure to get trashed, but I do think that Anne-Marie has some great stallions. There are also some other great stallions in North America. I feel that there are only a few great mares though (my preferences: Anne-Marie's mares, Ankara and Galina). I also believe that I have a great stallion with Habib Shael. (Now just to get him and my new great mares safely to their new home!)

With your horses Jennifer, which ones do you think are your great ones?

16. Heather04/20/2007 15:11:31

Kerri-Jo,
You won't get trashed - well, not by me. Anne-Marie DOES have some beautiful horses! I should have been more careful to emphasize that what I am saying is that there is an overwhelming LACK of people like Jessica and Anne-Marie in the US. Can you send a link for a picture of your stallion?! I'd love to get a look at Habib Shael and his pedigree.
Heather

17. Kerri-Jo Stewart04/21/2007 00:57:21
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

thanks very much Heather. And I really do want to see more photos of Todd and Jessica's horses (not Jennifer, stupid me, I've now mixed up 2 names on here as I always do this right before bed!).

A direct link is here:
http://www.stewartclan.ca/akhal-teke/2007/04/20/introducing-our-new-breeding-stallion/
and there is a link to Leonid's site with Habib's pedigree.

18. Anne-Marie04/21/2007 12:04:49
Homepage: http://freedomrunfarm.com

The western mentality of breeding is hurting the AT in the US. The success that we see in the warmbloods comes from the fact that they have very strict guidlines on breeding and selection. When I first became interested in this breed I looked at mainly Russian horses and I had the impression that they are organized and have breeding regulations in place, such as class 2 horses should not be used for breeding etc. How do we get organized enough to demand breeding selection in the AT breed in the US when there are now 3 associations here, I cannot believe that those people with inferior horses would just agree to not breed their non conforming horses or register their offspring with the local AT association and then advertize them as wonderful AT horses. I think a national show or grading event would help the AT here in the US also. I am new to the AT breed, so I do not claim to have any answeres or solutions. Jessica, I can see where you are going with changing the name. Now as to my horses, I researched and bought the best sound and servicable stallions I could find. There where other stallions available to me that were perhaps better in type and looks but were more expensive, not sound so they could not be used in sports due to injuries etc... I bought what I liked, I am happy with my purchases and that is what matters to me.

19. Heather04/23/2007 09:45:16

I think you are both right, Jessica and Anne-Marie, in your evaluations of the breed situation in the US, and luckily for you, are in a position to make some difference. You both have beautiful athletic horses, and Russian contacts, which I think is critical to success with this breed. I think that more shows or Teke events like the one Jessica has proposed for next fall - in which there are respected Russian experts made available to the US breeder to critique their horses - will give the breeders that have a sincere interest in pursuing success the opportunity to get constructive criticism on their breeding programs, as well as remind them of what they're shooting for (by having excellent breed examples visible to them).
Jessica - what's up with plans for the Sunshine Teke show?! I know it's something I'm particularly looking forward to, and I would hope that people like Anne-Marie, and anyone else in our region with tekes would plan to bring their horses to support the event.

20. Jessica04/23/2007 11:22:38

Anne-Marie, the western mentality is not destroying the Teke breed, it is the so called backyard mentality that is prohibiting a sound and successful development for this breed. The Russian system is a paper system that is dysfunctional and approves just about everything to be used for breeding.
No horse is excluded from breeding and the system is allowing and even encouraging breeders/owners to show and breed horses with severe defects because they think, like no other breed association that you have to make sure to maintain the type first and later get rid of all the defects you have allowed encouraged into the breed. That's backyard and backwards thinking big time!
You say yourself Anne-Marie that you wanted typical and sound horses, of course, that is what everyone, except the Russian studbook wants. Do not for a minute think that the Russian elite grading is a quality assurance comparable to the western studbooks. You can have elite horses without fertility,stallions without testicles, parrot mouths, bone spavin, club foot, well the whole smorgasbord of defects that by western breed associations are disqualifying for riding and breeding animals.
The situation we have today is that we see more and more typical elite graded Tekes with defects, in many cases defects that make them only good for in best cases lawn ornaments.
The western horse breeding mentality is to care and nurture the horses by selecting for horses that can live a long, productive and healthy life.
If this system for producing sound, beautiful performing Tekes can be applied, it is at least a beginning. I have said it before, I do it myself and I encourage every serious Teke breeder in the west to use the quality assurance system developed by other breed associations for inspections and assessment of soundness, conformational correctness etc for riding horses. Show your horses to ackredited judges with integrity that have no interest in the breed!

21. Blanca04/23/2007 11:35:14

Jessica, fully agree with you. But the other end of the stick is those tekes whose conformation is good but you can't see they are tekes.

This is happening in some EU countries where breeders are disqualifying the traditional deffects (good!) you are mentioning above but they don't know how to produce a typey individual. The result is those nice, welll feed, warmblood looking tekes...

22. Heather04/23/2007 13:07:54

I am curious about something, and truly am not in the position to know the answer, but many of you, I suspect are...
Jessica,
Are there currently any elite graded (or at least elite quality) akhal-tekes that are without defects (as judged by western standards)? And I understand that there is a cultural and historical difference in what is considered a breeding defect between say my perception, and a Russian breeder's, but I'd love to have someone like you, Todd, Anne-Marie, Blanca, Maria, Leonid, etc. name a couple of examples of what you are shooting for - TYPEY looking tekes that are sound and without substantial "defects" to westernized eyes. (Or as Blanca said fairly, a "warmblood" look).
Can you throw out a few names of what you'd like to emulate here in the states, or is the breeding so far gone in your mind that you consider what you've called a "revolution" towards a "turkman" horse because you don't think that's even available anymore??? I'm truly curious if there are tekes you would consider the flagships of your ideal...

23. Leonid04/23/2007 13:44:45
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

I am not agree absolutly Jessica. I don't want any rules in akhalteke breed beside of purity. Our customers are free and they buy such horses wich they want. Different studs, different breeders, different types of horses, different customers and big choice for them. Impossible when somebody will come to me and will dictate rules of my breeding. This horses are pureblood by right of birth, and only customer can estimate them by own money. When customer does bed choice, it is misfortune of us like propogandists and promoters not more.

24. Anne-Marie04/23/2007 13:51:12
Homepage: http://freedomrunfarm.com

Yes, I should have used the word "backyard Breeder" instead of Western Mentality. And yes after more studying of Russian registry I understand the faults that are ignored and let slide. Well, there comes that buyer beware again. Heather, I will have to put some thought into my flagships ideal before I answere.

25. Jessica04/23/2007 14:28:15

Leonid, where have you been? I have missed your comments!
I know that you are for the purity equals breeding rights and really in my answer to Anne-Marie I try to explain to her that there are no rules that disqualify Tekes such as class II graded horses from their breeding rights. In Anne-Marie's comment # 18 she writes that she selected the Russian Teke breed as she felt that they had strict breeding rules, I have explained that this is not the case. The pure bred Tekes in Russia come with a breeding right.
The Russians are also in charge of the breed and can decide without international cooperation to give the highest breeding credits, elite, to horses that have defects that would disqualify them for breeding in most western breeds.
This is a fact and this is what western buyers should be very well aware of when they shop for horses in Russia.
This cannot be mentioned often enough as in the western culture, the approval procedure such as inspections are made to cull out defect animals from the population and show rules make it impossible for judges to credit defect horses with elite or champion titles. Therefore many western newcomers to the Teke breed falsely think that an elite graded Teke is also a sound and healthy horse according to western standards. Right or wrong it is another discussion but this is a fact that everyone in this breed must be aware of.
If you want to advertise your horses as quality assured according to western standards, I therefore do it myself and recommend others to show your horses with western associations that can accept to take in Teke type of horses for inspections and soundness approval etc.
But again this is every individual breeder's choice. As I have always emphasized health and soundness in my breeding program I like to regularely test my horses with associations that have those goals in common.
Especially after the publication of the 10th studbook I also feel myself that the Russian grading system is not attractive or relevant for my breeding program anymore. I like to show my horses to judges that work in a transparent system that I myself can understand and to be honest, the Russian system is far to unpredictable and for me.

26. Leonid04/23/2007 16:11:26
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

There are not russian sistem of grading in the Russia. This is wishes of clerks of VNIIK only. Most of main russian breeders don't need in the grading. We need in breed show, like promo actions, not more. We try to determ best horses in such show in the comparison, but I don't know what means elite 1, or 2, or simple elite. For me it's nothing.

27. Leonid04/23/2007 16:28:59
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Do you can imagine grading in the English TB beside of race result? It's nonsence!!! Why is it for akhalteke? Becouse most of you came to this breed from warmblood breeding, with warmblood traditions.

28. Jessica04/23/2007 18:57:16

Leonid, the fact is that some of your collegues in Russia hard market the grading points from the clerks of VNIIK and have them write and undersign all kinds of fairytales about the horses they are advertising and selling over the Internet.
I would say that the present grading system that is imposed on each and everyone that has to deal with VNIIK is here to stay as far to many the clerks themselves have a very strong interest in this system to control a bigger part of the breed and the market.
Some of the elite graded Tekes you now find on the Internet sale sites are a shame for the breed and an obvious scam for innocent buyers.
Of course people trust what is said about grading and the way it is presented on maakcenter.org not everyone grew up in a corrupt society and therefore trusts no one especially state institutions.
I can see only one way to go if you do not accept the VNIIK way of managing this breed it is to leave VNIIK and make sure that your clients understand why you leave this organisation.
We, that you say come from warmblood breeding, came into this breed in the 80's, 90's or later then already the warmblood system was implemented for the Teke breed, it was not our doing it was the VNIIK management, I cannot see how we in the west can do anything to affect a system that has been implemented for such a long time.
It was the Russians that took the Teke breed into the warmblood system and it is you that can take them out of this system, not us newcomers in the west, we are just struggling to understand and cope.

29. Jessica04/23/2007 19:09:55

Blanca, I agree with you that it is important to see and understand the difference between defects and typical traits in our breed.
It is not easy as we have no standard of excellence for stallions and mares as guideline for the new breeder.
Also if you think the warmblood look-a-like has a better market I guess you will select for those traits. So far though I have not seen anyone successfully managing such a program.
I see as many, which I find almost more disturbing, breeders that try to starve their horses into what they think is the Teke greyhound look, in order to hide bad selection.
If you have a Teke of the massive type you have to feed it even if it will look massive, if you do not like that look you breed your massive horse to a leaner type of Teke.
We also need to understand the diffence between a massive, approved, and a coarse, not wanted, type also the difference between a lean well built athlete and a starved, bad put together horse that has a limited use as a riding animal.
The lack of education for the breeders is becoming more obvious and we also see the results in some of the Tekes being produced today.

30. Darya04/23/2007 20:10:48
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

From what I've understood, the clerks from MAAK/VNIIK compare the horse to the line founder when they judge it and grade according to that alongside other things. That might explain why some completely different looking horses have been awarded elite. After all there are different types and special characteristics to every line too. Unlike some breeds where there is this ideal image of what the breed should look like. I think this makes Tekes very difficult to understand and breed. From the other side, you have got plenty to choose from and variety like in no other breed. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not promoting three-legged horses.
My humble opinion.

31. Jessica04/23/2007 20:52:32

All breeds look for a variety of phenotypes, this is to maintain a genetic diversity within the breed, for breeds with closed studbooks these varieties are more important than the breeds that are open.
The Tekes have wide type ranges to work within. This is not what we have been discussing now, it is the fact that horses that carry genetical defects have been elite graded and awarded champion titles in a system that is originally worked out to maintain breed soundness and support breed improvement.
As this system to many now has lost its integrity and reliability the question is now why it still exists and whom it benefits.
Some Russian breeders think it is wrong to grade Tekes warmblood style, some westerners think it would be great to grade Tekes warmblood style, this though with a transparent, non discriminating system that will improve the breed as well as educate breeders and everyone interested in the breed.

32. Leonid04/23/2007 23:55:12
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

This is not only russian or only west problems. All newcomer breeders came to teke breed with warmblood traditions and all they need in grading. This is the illness of youth to have teacher, to have rules. One rule only - purity!!!
Injudicious to change brand "teke", each can create own brand, like "shael" for example, but under general brand "teke", wich guarantees purity. Possible to create new brand in the case when old does not guarantees purity only. Till, necessary to improve present.

About directions of breeding. Everybody is right and only show results, race results, sport results and customers can determ who is more righter. May be bed, but we created here in the Russia sistem of determination, of promotion: races, shows. Do something! In the reality you produce horses for "poodles". I did not see any teke horse in the sport direction wrom the West. We all are bed promoters.

33. Leonid04/24/2007 05:36:48
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

file://localhost/C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Leonid/Мои%20документы/my%20documents/MY_DOCUM/photo/garem1.jpg

file://localhost/C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Leonid/Мои%20документы/my%20documents/MY_DOCUM/photo/hazargiz1.jpg

file://localhost/C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Leonid/Мои%20документы/my%20documents/MY_DOCUM/photo/андрухович%20и%20сере2.jpg

file://localhost/C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Leonid/Мои%20документы/my%20documents/MY_DOCUM/photo/газыр1.jpg

file://localhost/C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Leonid/Мои%20документы/my%20documents/MY_DOCUM/photo/гаяз1.jpg

file://localhost/C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Leonid/Мои%20документы/my%20documents/MY_DOCUM/photo/сумерки%20портрет%20далай-шаэля.jpg

34. Leonid04/24/2007 05:38:34
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Sorry look "gallery - Kolobaev" at my site.

35. Heather04/24/2007 10:06:07

Leonid,
First, and not related to the topic - I LOVE THE DOG on your gallery! It looks like a few of the Central Asian Shepherd dogs I've seen in the US, but they are not very common. I've always had huge dogs - a Leonberger named Hamish at the moment - but you can pass along my admiration for such a great looking animal!

Now in relation to the topic, since I was mentioning dogs I'll use that as an example. There are health issues that exist in animals - ANY animal - that are not always visible to the interested buyer. For instance some large dogs have a tendency for cardiomyopathy, but a buyer could not know if this was common in a given dog's line unless the breeder was honest and forthcoming with such information. To me it is same with AT's. There may be health issues - visible or not - that could affect the horse's performance, viability or even suitability for contributing to the gene pool, that the buyer is not able to be aware of unless provided with transparent information from the breeder. All the wisdom of horse flesh cannot give you powers to see some of these genetic anomalies.

36. Leonid04/24/2007 11:25:56
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

With dogs I am user only.